Honestly, picking Trump again is a good thing for the rest of us. We know he can lose and because of the last presidential election and his base is just getting smaller.
It’s not like any Republican is a good candidate. All of them think abortion is a crime and will appoint shit supreme court justices. So give me the one I know loses because they lost before.
He’s not funding a “genocide thing”. The US has subsidized Israel for decades. Not yanking all of our support because they responded to a terrorist attack on their civilian population is not the same as “funding a genocide thing”.
Also yes, imprisoning a civilian population in a location and then bombing that location is genocide. They are clearly and deliberately exterminating civilians. The fact that we didn’t remove all support the instant they started doing that is appalling.
Also before you even start with the whole “hamas is using the cavilians as human shields.” Yes, they are. But that doesn’t mean Israels solution of “kill them all and let god sort them out” is remotely acceptable.
But that doesn’t mean Israels solution of “kill them all and let god sort them out” is remotely acceptable.
I completely agree with you there. The whole situation is fucked up, and neither side is making any effort to take the high road. I get that the hamas doesn’t have that luxury, being underdog rebels and all, but it’s not like their goals are benevolent either. One of their stated goals is the complete destruction of Israel, and the Jews. Israel, being the well armed and well funded nation, should be taking steps to respond in an ethical manner, but they’re sinking to the goals of their enemies. Or maybe those were always their goals anyways, and the hamas attack gave them an excuse. I don’t pretend to be an expert on Israel Hamas relations. I just don’t think that Biden can be judged too harshly for not immediately yanking decades of history with Israel. For one, if the US stops supporting Israel, Israel will likely cease to exist shortly afterwards. Anyways, I’m going way off the original topic, so I apologize for that. The overall point I’m trying to make is that I agree with you, but acknowledge the complexity of the situation.
“16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.”
And can you blame them for conflating zionists with jews, when the ethnostate that has been slaughtering and oppressing the Palestinian people has been trying to do precisely that for the past 70+ years, and is backed by the world superpower as they try to do so?
Hamas’s tactics aren’t much different from the Viet Cong’s; attacking villages, taking hostages, and using tunnels and guerilla warfare. These are simply the most effective methods of driving out an occupying entity, and wouldn’t be necessary if the colony wasn’t there in the first place.
Okay, so they want to destroy Israel, and Zionists, which they conflate with the Jewish people. It’s kind of splitting hairs. No? If their only issue was opposition to Israeli occupation, then it would be a lot easier to sympathize with them, but they are a Muslim extremist organization that wants the destruction of Israel.
Since its creation in December 1987, Hamas has invoked militant interpretations of Islam to spearhead a Sunni extremist movement committed to destroying Israel.
That comes from this website , but can be found just about anywhere. Even your own document lists this opposition:
The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will and the will of the Ummah
To be clear, I think the human rights violations perpetrated in Gaza are atrocious. The bombing of civilians and civilian targets is awful. But Hamas isn’t some benevolent organization that is taking a beating through no fault of their own, and they would perpetrate the same or worse against Israel if they had the power to do so.
It’s surprising to me that there’s so much pandering to Hamas on this website, from a group of people who are generally vehemently opposed to religion, and especially religious extremism. Hamas are religious extremists, with a violent perspective towards outsiders, and an abusive relationship with women. Ultimately what I’m saying is that what Israel is doing is wrong. Full-stop. Also, the goals of Hamas are wrong. Full-stop. That said, Biden’s involvement is circumstantial, since he inherited a government with a history of aid to Israel, and has merely not revoked it. I support Bernie’s proposition yesterday, to require the US Secretary of State to report on Israel’s humanitarian violations or withhold their aid. Unfortunately the Senate voted overwhelmingly against that measure, 71-11, if my memory serves correctly.
Zionists, which they conflate with the Jewish people. It’s kind of splitting hairs. No?
First, see my previous comment regarding the current Hamas charter. And second, you do realize saying that separating Jewish people from zionists is like “splitting hairs” is anti-semetic right? And that’s literally what the israeli government wants people to do.
organization that wants the destruction of Israel.
Of course. “Israel” itself is a western colony in Palestine, and colonies have no right to exist. Its formation used common british colonization tactics [III], with companies literally named “Colonization Commission”, “Jewish Colonial Trust” and the like.
Theodor Herzl, founder of the colonial ideology he called “zionism”, was himself also just a racist colonizer by his own admission, and saw it as bringing ‘civilization’ to ‘barbarians’ as the rest of Europe did when they were colonizing and enslaving Africa and Asia:
“We should there form a portion of a rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilization as opposed to barbarism. We should as a neutral State remain in contact with all Europe, which would have to guarantee our existence.” Source [II]
That’s exactly what’s happening right now, all for US and European capitalist interests in the region, no matter how many people die in the process.
Zionist leaders fully acknowledged that Palestinian demographics were a core issue to the Zionist project, that the Palestinian population had to be removed at any cost, which is exactly what Israel did. What lead to the Palestinians being defenseless in this situation? Colonial Britain abetted the formation of heavily armed Zionist militias with soldiers numbering in the tens of thousands. The arms of Britain’s colonial military presence were inherited by the Zionist forces that it supported. All this while Britain summarily excecuted any Palestinian found in possession of a firearm.
This is not to mention the enthusiastic support of european antisemites for the Zionist project, or its strict early opposition by antifascist jews.
The idea that Israel has any right to exist on Palestinian land is a lie that has been so heavily proliferated, it has to be debunked when it should be paid no consideration at all.
From the PFLP’s 1969 Strategy For the Liberation of Palestine (very good read):
The Palestinian liberation movement is not a racial movement with aggressive intentions against the Jews. It is not directed against the Jews. Its object is to destroy the state of Israel as a military, political and economic establishment that rests on aggression, expansion and organic connection with imperialist interests in our homeland. It is against Zionism as an aggressive racial movement connected with imperialism, which has exploited the sufferings of the Jews as a stepping stone for the promotion of its interests and the interests of imperialism in this part of the world that possesses rich resources (the middle east and its oil) and provides a bridgehead into the countries of Africa and Asia.
.
It’s surprising to me that there’s so much pandering to Hamas on this website, from a group of people who are generally vehemently opposed to religion, and especially religious extremism.
Because this is a lefty platform. We don’t like religions, but we’re not about to tell people that have been oppressed and killed for generations to not use it as an organizing and political tool to fight against colonialism and imperialism.
And second, you do realize saying that separating Jewish people from zionists is like “splitting hairs” is anti-semetic right?
That wasn’t my opinion. What I read in their charter that you shared is that they associate all of Israel with Zionism. So their statement that they don’t want the destruction of the Jews, only the destruction of Zionism and Israel, is semantics. If they state that all of Israel is Zionist, and Israel is the home of the Jewish people, then they are still advocating the destruction of the Jewish people. That’s what I meant by “splitting hairs”.
What do you propose? The Jewish people have just as much right to exist as every other people. They have a long and storied history in that region, and eons long conflict with Palestine. This isn’t their first time occupying that region. So how is Palestine’s claim to the entire region of Israel more legitimate than Israel’s claim? Just because they have been there without Israel more recently? I do agree that Israel should pull out of Palestine, but I don’t agree that that includes the entire territory of their whole nation.
The Iranian Islamic revolution of 1979 overthrowing the US-backed monarchy was also deeply religious, and resulted in a drastically improved quality of life for everyone in the nation.
I strongly disagree. Women lost the majority of their rights because of that revolution, and live heavily oppressed now. People lost a lot of their liberty, and they’re subject to religious law, which is imposed upon them. My best friend’s wife is from Iran. Her parents still live in Iran. She has a very large family, all of whom I am close with, and not a single one of them views the Islamic State of Iran as an improvement to the conditions in the country prior to the revolution. Granted, their opinions aren’t necessarily representative of every person in Iran, but they’re as close as I can personally get to that situation. I trust their judgement and intellect, so I tend to believe the things they tell me.
We’re getting further away from the actual topic of discussion though, which was that Biden is funding and supporting genocide. I think I’ve already made my position on that clear, so I won’t burden you with it again.
I appreciate you taking the time to share your perspective with me, and discuss this in a civilized manner.
Supports a fascist, far-right regime built upon an ideology rooted in white supremacy, that has been engaged in genocide and ethnic cleansing for the past 70 plus years
It seems unlikely you have the capacity to see anything outside your heavily indoctrinated zionist viewpoint.
You are partially right; the nation built on slavery and imperialism will indeed continue to support colonialism until its capitalist government is overthrown entirely, but an openly zionazi pos like Biden makes that support even worse, as we can already see with the ongoing genocide.
I’d be mad if reality was in staunch opposition to my narrative
Imagine being such a fucking loser that all you can think of in response to that is basically “nuh uh”. You could only come up with adding “Blah blah fucking blah” to that? What a child lmao
Are you shocked allies back each other?
Read the comment you’re replying to.
Did you make this same complaint before October 7th
Yes, as did anyone with half a braincell. Evidently you’re not one of them though.
Do you think I’m championing this behavior by stating facts?
Refer to the facts in the comment you’re replying to.
Yesssss, attack me personally with insults, I love it.
Your stance is so true and rock solid that you’re resorting to calling me names including (ironically, considering your behavior) calling me a child when your opinions gets any push back.
Biden BARELY beat him the first time around and conditions are WORSE this time around:
1: The electorate has a ridiculously short memory and aren’t currently suffering from Trump being president.
2: Related to but distinct from 1, Biden’s main strategy of “at least I’m not the other guy” is much less effective for an incumbent than a challenger.
3: Biden is currently alienating a large part of his own base by supporting two seperate genocides (Gaza and Yemen), one of which Democrats actually care about even when there’s a Dem president.
Don’t get me wrong, I REALLY want him to win since he’s by far the lesser evil, but for the above reasons and others, there’s a significant risk of him actually losing if the traitor isn’t disqualified as he should be
Things are not worse. Life for the average American is significantly better now than it was in 2020. I guess everyone’s already forgotten the shambles our society was in during the 2020 election?
I meant that his ELECTION prospects are worse, in part BECAUSE life in general is better and many have forgotten just how awful it used to be.
It’s much easier to get elected on “we know he’s not the most exciting candidate, but at least he’s better than the one ruining your life right now” than on “we know he’s been underwhelming but at least he hasn’t been catastrophic like the one who used to ruin your life”
Biden won by nearly 7 million votes with a 62% of votes under 30 years old and 52% under 45 years old.
Actually the only age group he didn’t win with was 65+ and they’re the ones dropping faster and faster each month.
So you’re assuming people will take Trump over Biden because he was involved in genocide when he was involved in 8 years of drone strike champion before he ran in 2020.
He won the popular vote by a smaller percentage of votes cast than Hillary and the Dem candidate winning the sub-45yo vote is pretty much a given. In most elections, it would be by much more.
As for the 65+ group, a lot of fascists and people who don’t consider fascism more of a deal breaker than a (D) behind a name are aging into that group, perhaps as many as are dying off.
And no, I’m not assuming anything. I’m pointing out that there’s a big risk of the pro-democracy candidate losing if he and the rest of the DNC don’t stop thinking that “Not Trump” is enough and start listening to what the public wants.
No. I was about to refute their misconceptions point by point but decided it wasn’t worth the effort since we’re ostensibly on the same side and nothing I or anyone else can say would convince them.
Same with you, it seems, so unless you actually have something to add, I suggest you take your conclusion jumping elsewhere.
Please do try. I’d like to see you show how hilariously out of your element you are trying to prove something to a bunch of randos on the internet :)
Classic conservative playbook… as soon as somebody proves you wrong or even just argues well against your points, you make a short comment indicating that the time for discussion has passed and that you’ve already won.
Honestly, picking Trump again is a good thing for the rest of us. We know he can lose and because of the last presidential election and his base is just getting smaller.
It’s not like any Republican is a good candidate. All of them think abortion is a crime and will appoint shit supreme court justices. So give me the one I know loses because they lost before.
None of the other candidates had a chance at winning. That is not the same as Trump having a chance at losing.
I think he is implying that trump has already lost an election.
As long as everyone who voted before votes again it’s just the same result because neither candidate is running on anything new.
Except Bidens base is also getting smaller. The whole funding a genocide thing isn’t exactly winning him any supporters.
I’m judging bases on data about ages and death. You’re judging bases on feelings from social media.
He’s not funding a “genocide thing”. The US has subsidized Israel for decades. Not yanking all of our support because they responded to a terrorist attack on their civilian population is not the same as “funding a genocide thing”.
To clear up my initial comment.
Also yes, imprisoning a civilian population in a location and then bombing that location is genocide. They are clearly and deliberately exterminating civilians. The fact that we didn’t remove all support the instant they started doing that is appalling.
Also before you even start with the whole “hamas is using the cavilians as human shields.” Yes, they are. But that doesn’t mean Israels solution of “kill them all and let god sort them out” is remotely acceptable.
I completely agree with you there. The whole situation is fucked up, and neither side is making any effort to take the high road. I get that the hamas doesn’t have that luxury, being underdog rebels and all, but it’s not like their goals are benevolent either. One of their stated goals is the complete destruction of Israel, and the Jews. Israel, being the well armed and well funded nation, should be taking steps to respond in an ethical manner, but they’re sinking to the goals of their enemies. Or maybe those were always their goals anyways, and the hamas attack gave them an excuse. I don’t pretend to be an expert on Israel Hamas relations. I just don’t think that Biden can be judged too harshly for not immediately yanking decades of history with Israel. For one, if the US stops supporting Israel, Israel will likely cease to exist shortly afterwards. Anyways, I’m going way off the original topic, so I apologize for that. The overall point I’m trying to make is that I agree with you, but acknowledge the complexity of the situation.
False under their 2017 Hamas charter:
“16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.”
And can you blame them for conflating zionists with jews, when the ethnostate that has been slaughtering and oppressing the Palestinian people has been trying to do precisely that for the past 70+ years, and is backed by the world superpower as they try to do so?
Hamas’s tactics aren’t much different from the Viet Cong’s; attacking villages, taking hostages, and using tunnels and guerilla warfare. These are simply the most effective methods of driving out an occupying entity, and wouldn’t be necessary if the colony wasn’t there in the first place.
They have also done a far better job at avoiding killing children than Israel. The final death toll from the Oct 7 attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli “civilians” (mostly unarmed IDF conscripts), 373 armed IDF members, 71 foreigners and 36 children. While Israel has killed 22,000 Palestinians, 2/3 of whom are women and children.
Okay, so they want to destroy Israel, and Zionists, which they conflate with the Jewish people. It’s kind of splitting hairs. No? If their only issue was opposition to Israeli occupation, then it would be a lot easier to sympathize with them, but they are a Muslim extremist organization that wants the destruction of Israel.
That comes from this website , but can be found just about anywhere. Even your own document lists this opposition:
To be clear, I think the human rights violations perpetrated in Gaza are atrocious. The bombing of civilians and civilian targets is awful. But Hamas isn’t some benevolent organization that is taking a beating through no fault of their own, and they would perpetrate the same or worse against Israel if they had the power to do so.
It’s surprising to me that there’s so much pandering to Hamas on this website, from a group of people who are generally vehemently opposed to religion, and especially religious extremism. Hamas are religious extremists, with a violent perspective towards outsiders, and an abusive relationship with women. Ultimately what I’m saying is that what Israel is doing is wrong. Full-stop. Also, the goals of Hamas are wrong. Full-stop. That said, Biden’s involvement is circumstantial, since he inherited a government with a history of aid to Israel, and has merely not revoked it. I support Bernie’s proposition yesterday, to require the US Secretary of State to report on Israel’s humanitarian violations or withhold their aid. Unfortunately the Senate voted overwhelmingly against that measure, 71-11, if my memory serves correctly.
First, see my previous comment regarding the current Hamas charter. And second, you do realize saying that separating Jewish people from zionists is like “splitting hairs” is anti-semetic right? And that’s literally what the israeli government wants people to do.
Of course. “Israel” itself is a western colony in Palestine, and colonies have no right to exist. Its formation used common british colonization tactics [III], with companies literally named “Colonization Commission”, “Jewish Colonial Trust” and the like.
Theodor Herzl, founder of the colonial ideology he called “zionism”, was himself also just a racist colonizer by his own admission, and saw it as bringing ‘civilization’ to ‘barbarians’ as the rest of Europe did when they were colonizing and enslaving Africa and Asia:
That’s exactly what’s happening right now, all for US and European capitalist interests in the region, no matter how many people die in the process.
Zionist leaders fully acknowledged that Palestinian demographics were a core issue to the Zionist project, that the Palestinian population had to be removed at any cost, which is exactly what Israel did. What lead to the Palestinians being defenseless in this situation? Colonial Britain abetted the formation of heavily armed Zionist militias with soldiers numbering in the tens of thousands. The arms of Britain’s colonial military presence were inherited by the Zionist forces that it supported. All this while Britain summarily excecuted any Palestinian found in possession of a firearm.
This is not to mention the enthusiastic support of european antisemites for the Zionist project, or its strict early opposition by antifascist jews.
The idea that Israel has any right to exist on Palestinian land is a lie that has been so heavily proliferated, it has to be debunked when it should be paid no consideration at all.
From the PFLP’s 1969 Strategy For the Liberation of Palestine (very good read):
.
Because this is a lefty platform. We don’t like religions, but we’re not about to tell people that have been oppressed and killed for generations to not use it as an organizing and political tool to fight against colonialism and imperialism.
The Iranian Islamic revolution of 1979 overthrowing the US-backed monarchy was also deeply religious, and resulted in a drastically improved quality of life for everyone in the nation. Total literacy in Iran has also from 47% to 93% and female literacy has gone from 37% to 87%.
That wasn’t my opinion. What I read in their charter that you shared is that they associate all of Israel with Zionism. So their statement that they don’t want the destruction of the Jews, only the destruction of Zionism and Israel, is semantics. If they state that all of Israel is Zionist, and Israel is the home of the Jewish people, then they are still advocating the destruction of the Jewish people. That’s what I meant by “splitting hairs”.
What do you propose? The Jewish people have just as much right to exist as every other people. They have a long and storied history in that region, and eons long conflict with Palestine. This isn’t their first time occupying that region. So how is Palestine’s claim to the entire region of Israel more legitimate than Israel’s claim? Just because they have been there without Israel more recently? I do agree that Israel should pull out of Palestine, but I don’t agree that that includes the entire territory of their whole nation.
I strongly disagree. Women lost the majority of their rights because of that revolution, and live heavily oppressed now. People lost a lot of their liberty, and they’re subject to religious law, which is imposed upon them. My best friend’s wife is from Iran. Her parents still live in Iran. She has a very large family, all of whom I am close with, and not a single one of them views the Islamic State of Iran as an improvement to the conditions in the country prior to the revolution. Granted, their opinions aren’t necessarily representative of every person in Iran, but they’re as close as I can personally get to that situation. I trust their judgement and intellect, so I tend to believe the things they tell me.
We’re getting further away from the actual topic of discussion though, which was that Biden is funding and supporting genocide. I think I’ve already made my position on that clear, so I won’t burden you with it again.
I appreciate you taking the time to share your perspective with me, and discuss this in a civilized manner.
Ew, a Nazi
Do you even know what that means? It seems unlikely.
Supports a fascist, far-right regime built upon an ideology rooted in white supremacy, that has been engaged in genocide and ethnic cleansing for the past 70 plus years
It seems unlikely you have the capacity to see anything outside your heavily indoctrinated zionist viewpoint.
Yeah, none of those statements represent my opinion. Quite the opposite actually.
What a fucking disgusting comment
It’s almost like Israel and the US are strategic allies and would help each other no matter who the president was.
If you’re .ml I’m sure you’ll downvote this. I’d be mad if reality was in staunch opposition to my narrative too.
Is that why this zionist piece of shit went as far as to bypass congress so Israel could get its weapons to commit genocide faster?
You are partially right; the nation built on slavery and imperialism will indeed continue to support colonialism until its capitalist government is overthrown entirely, but an openly zionazi pos like Biden makes that support even worse, as we can already see with the ongoing genocide.
Ig you should indeed be mad then.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
openly being a zionazi
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
My narrative is as follows:
Blah blah fucking blah, america has always been an imperialist shit-hole. Slavery and nonsensical governing since the start. Are you shocked by this?
Are you shocked allies back each other? Did you make this same complaint before October 7th or are you just another bandwagon moral-elitist?
Do you think I’m championing this behavior by stating facts? You’re delusional mate.
Imagine being such a fucking loser that all you can think of in response to that is basically “nuh uh”. You could only come up with adding “Blah blah fucking blah” to that? What a child lmao
Read the comment you’re replying to.
Yes, as did anyone with half a braincell. Evidently you’re not one of them though.
Refer to the facts in the comment you’re replying to.
Yeah, you clearly are.
Yesssss, attack me personally with insults, I love it.
Your stance is so true and rock solid that you’re resorting to calling me names including (ironically, considering your behavior) calling me a child when your opinions gets any push back.
Typical.
Biden BARELY beat him the first time around and conditions are WORSE this time around:
1: The electorate has a ridiculously short memory and aren’t currently suffering from Trump being president.
2: Related to but distinct from 1, Biden’s main strategy of “at least I’m not the other guy” is much less effective for an incumbent than a challenger.
3: Biden is currently alienating a large part of his own base by supporting two seperate genocides (Gaza and Yemen), one of which Democrats actually care about even when there’s a Dem president.
Don’t get me wrong, I REALLY want him to win since he’s by far the lesser evil, but for the above reasons and others, there’s a significant risk of him actually losing if the traitor isn’t disqualified as he should be
Things are not worse. Life for the average American is significantly better now than it was in 2020. I guess everyone’s already forgotten the shambles our society was in during the 2020 election?
I meant that his ELECTION prospects are worse, in part BECAUSE life in general is better and many have forgotten just how awful it used to be.
It’s much easier to get elected on “we know he’s not the most exciting candidate, but at least he’s better than the one ruining your life right now” than on “we know he’s been underwhelming but at least he hasn’t been catastrophic like the one who used to ruin your life”
Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.
Biden won by nearly 7 million votes with a 62% of votes under 30 years old and 52% under 45 years old.
Actually the only age group he didn’t win with was 65+ and they’re the ones dropping faster and faster each month.
So you’re assuming people will take Trump over Biden because he was involved in genocide when he was involved in 8 years of drone strike champion before he ran in 2020.
He won the popular vote by a smaller percentage of votes cast than Hillary and the Dem candidate winning the sub-45yo vote is pretty much a given. In most elections, it would be by much more.
As for the 65+ group, a lot of fascists and people who don’t consider fascism more of a deal breaker than a (D) behind a name are aging into that group, perhaps as many as are dying off.
And no, I’m not assuming anything. I’m pointing out that there’s a big risk of the pro-democracy candidate losing if he and the rest of the DNC don’t stop thinking that “Not Trump” is enough and start listening to what the public wants.
I don’t know how to explain to you that you just agreed with me.
You agree that young people vote dem
You agree old people are dying off
But you think Dems will be held accountable by voters by electing a worse candidate for them just to spite the Dems? .
People will take the best option they are provided and 2020 had the highest voter turnout since 1900 for sleepy creepy Joe.
You obviously have a lot more faith in the rationality of voters than I do, in spite of the whole gestures at entire world thing.
In stead of pointing out details, I’m just gonna hope that your faith will be rewarded in a little under 11 months and wish you a nice day.
“I don’t have an argument, but I can’t handle being wrong, so I wrote this to ensure the safety of my ego”
No. I was about to refute their misconceptions point by point but decided it wasn’t worth the effort since we’re ostensibly on the same side and nothing I or anyone else can say would convince them.
Same with you, it seems, so unless you actually have something to add, I suggest you take your conclusion jumping elsewhere.
Please do try. I’d like to see you show how hilariously out of your element you are trying to prove something to a bunch of randos on the internet :)
Classic conservative playbook… as soon as somebody proves you wrong or even just argues well against your points, you make a short comment indicating that the time for discussion has passed and that you’ve already won.
It’s a well documented strategy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmVkJvieaOA&t=0
Enjoy your astroturfing