But that doesn’t mean Israels solution of “kill them all and let god sort them out” is remotely acceptable.
I completely agree with you there. The whole situation is fucked up, and neither side is making any effort to take the high road. I get that the hamas doesn’t have that luxury, being underdog rebels and all, but it’s not like their goals are benevolent either. One of their stated goals is the complete destruction of Israel, and the Jews. Israel, being the well armed and well funded nation, should be taking steps to respond in an ethical manner, but they’re sinking to the goals of their enemies. Or maybe those were always their goals anyways, and the hamas attack gave them an excuse. I don’t pretend to be an expert on Israel Hamas relations. I just don’t think that Biden can be judged too harshly for not immediately yanking decades of history with Israel. For one, if the US stops supporting Israel, Israel will likely cease to exist shortly afterwards. Anyways, I’m going way off the original topic, so I apologize for that. The overall point I’m trying to make is that I agree with you, but acknowledge the complexity of the situation.
“16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.”
And can you blame them for conflating zionists with jews, when the ethnostate that has been slaughtering and oppressing the Palestinian people has been trying to do precisely that for the past 70+ years, and is backed by the world superpower as they try to do so?
Hamas’s tactics aren’t much different from the Viet Cong’s; attacking villages, taking hostages, and using tunnels and guerilla warfare. These are simply the most effective methods of driving out an occupying entity, and wouldn’t be necessary if the colony wasn’t there in the first place.
Okay, so they want to destroy Israel, and Zionists, which they conflate with the Jewish people. It’s kind of splitting hairs. No? If their only issue was opposition to Israeli occupation, then it would be a lot easier to sympathize with them, but they are a Muslim extremist organization that wants the destruction of Israel.
Since its creation in December 1987, Hamas has invoked militant interpretations of Islam to spearhead a Sunni extremist movement committed to destroying Israel.
That comes from this website , but can be found just about anywhere. Even your own document lists this opposition:
The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will and the will of the Ummah
To be clear, I think the human rights violations perpetrated in Gaza are atrocious. The bombing of civilians and civilian targets is awful. But Hamas isn’t some benevolent organization that is taking a beating through no fault of their own, and they would perpetrate the same or worse against Israel if they had the power to do so.
It’s surprising to me that there’s so much pandering to Hamas on this website, from a group of people who are generally vehemently opposed to religion, and especially religious extremism. Hamas are religious extremists, with a violent perspective towards outsiders, and an abusive relationship with women. Ultimately what I’m saying is that what Israel is doing is wrong. Full-stop. Also, the goals of Hamas are wrong. Full-stop. That said, Biden’s involvement is circumstantial, since he inherited a government with a history of aid to Israel, and has merely not revoked it. I support Bernie’s proposition yesterday, to require the US Secretary of State to report on Israel’s humanitarian violations or withhold their aid. Unfortunately the Senate voted overwhelmingly against that measure, 71-11, if my memory serves correctly.
Zionists, which they conflate with the Jewish people. It’s kind of splitting hairs. No?
First, see my previous comment regarding the current Hamas charter. And second, you do realize saying that separating Jewish people from zionists is like “splitting hairs” is anti-semetic right? And that’s literally what the israeli government wants people to do.
organization that wants the destruction of Israel.
Of course. “Israel” itself is a western colony in Palestine, and colonies have no right to exist. Its formation used common british colonization tactics [III], with companies literally named “Colonization Commission”, “Jewish Colonial Trust” and the like.
Theodor Herzl, founder of the colonial ideology he called “zionism”, was himself also just a racist colonizer by his own admission, and saw it as bringing ‘civilization’ to ‘barbarians’ as the rest of Europe did when they were colonizing and enslaving Africa and Asia:
“We should there form a portion of a rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilization as opposed to barbarism. We should as a neutral State remain in contact with all Europe, which would have to guarantee our existence.” Source [II]
That’s exactly what’s happening right now, all for US and European capitalist interests in the region, no matter how many people die in the process.
Zionist leaders fully acknowledged that Palestinian demographics were a core issue to the Zionist project, that the Palestinian population had to be removed at any cost, which is exactly what Israel did. What lead to the Palestinians being defenseless in this situation? Colonial Britain abetted the formation of heavily armed Zionist militias with soldiers numbering in the tens of thousands. The arms of Britain’s colonial military presence were inherited by the Zionist forces that it supported. All this while Britain summarily excecuted any Palestinian found in possession of a firearm.
This is not to mention the enthusiastic support of european antisemites for the Zionist project, or its strict early opposition by antifascist jews.
The idea that Israel has any right to exist on Palestinian land is a lie that has been so heavily proliferated, it has to be debunked when it should be paid no consideration at all.
From the PFLP’s 1969 Strategy For the Liberation of Palestine (very good read):
The Palestinian liberation movement is not a racial movement with aggressive intentions against the Jews. It is not directed against the Jews. Its object is to destroy the state of Israel as a military, political and economic establishment that rests on aggression, expansion and organic connection with imperialist interests in our homeland. It is against Zionism as an aggressive racial movement connected with imperialism, which has exploited the sufferings of the Jews as a stepping stone for the promotion of its interests and the interests of imperialism in this part of the world that possesses rich resources (the middle east and its oil) and provides a bridgehead into the countries of Africa and Asia.
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It’s surprising to me that there’s so much pandering to Hamas on this website, from a group of people who are generally vehemently opposed to religion, and especially religious extremism.
Because this is a lefty platform. We don’t like religions, but we’re not about to tell people that have been oppressed and killed for generations to not use it as an organizing and political tool to fight against colonialism and imperialism.
And second, you do realize saying that separating Jewish people from zionists is like “splitting hairs” is anti-semetic right?
That wasn’t my opinion. What I read in their charter that you shared is that they associate all of Israel with Zionism. So their statement that they don’t want the destruction of the Jews, only the destruction of Zionism and Israel, is semantics. If they state that all of Israel is Zionist, and Israel is the home of the Jewish people, then they are still advocating the destruction of the Jewish people. That’s what I meant by “splitting hairs”.
What do you propose? The Jewish people have just as much right to exist as every other people. They have a long and storied history in that region, and eons long conflict with Palestine. This isn’t their first time occupying that region. So how is Palestine’s claim to the entire region of Israel more legitimate than Israel’s claim? Just because they have been there without Israel more recently? I do agree that Israel should pull out of Palestine, but I don’t agree that that includes the entire territory of their whole nation.
The Iranian Islamic revolution of 1979 overthrowing the US-backed monarchy was also deeply religious, and resulted in a drastically improved quality of life for everyone in the nation.
I strongly disagree. Women lost the majority of their rights because of that revolution, and live heavily oppressed now. People lost a lot of their liberty, and they’re subject to religious law, which is imposed upon them. My best friend’s wife is from Iran. Her parents still live in Iran. She has a very large family, all of whom I am close with, and not a single one of them views the Islamic State of Iran as an improvement to the conditions in the country prior to the revolution. Granted, their opinions aren’t necessarily representative of every person in Iran, but they’re as close as I can personally get to that situation. I trust their judgement and intellect, so I tend to believe the things they tell me.
We’re getting further away from the actual topic of discussion though, which was that Biden is funding and supporting genocide. I think I’ve already made my position on that clear, so I won’t burden you with it again.
I appreciate you taking the time to share your perspective with me, and discuss this in a civilized manner.
So their statement that they don’t want the destruction of the Jews, only the destruction of Zionism and Israel, is semantics.
A government is not the people, specially not when it’s the government of a colony.
What do you propose?
My opinion is the same as that of the PFLP’s book on the subject (again, great read, I suggest you go through it); until the inherently colonial and imperialist “state” of Israel is abolished, the oppression of the Palestinian people will not end.
The Palestinian liberation movement is not a racial movement with aggressive intentions against the Jews. It is not directed against the Jews. Its object is to destroy the state of Israel as a military, political and economic establishment that rests on aggression, expansion and organic connection with imperialist interests in our homeland. It is against Zionism as an aggressive racial movement connected with imperialism, which has exploited the sufferings of the Jews as a stepping stone for the promotion of its interests and the interests of imperialism in this part of the world that possesses rich resources and provides a bridgehead into the countries of Africa and Asia.
The aim of the Palestinian liberation movement is to establish a democratic national state in which both Arabs and Jews will live as citizens with equal rights and obligations and that will constitute an integral part of the progressive democratic Arab national presence living peacefully with all forces of progress in the world.
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This isn’t their first time occupying that region
That was 1400 years ago. You do realize this doesn’t at all justify colonialism in the modern day, right? By this logic, could Chinese Americans and Indian Americans return to China and India and lay claim to those countries?
Even the racist colonizer that founded zionism didn’t try to use that as justification, and admitted full well that this is just colonization, as per my previous comment.
I do agree that Israel should pull out of Palestine, but I don’t agree that that includes the entire territory of their whole nation.
Again, the entirety of Israel is an irredeemable fascist, imperialist ethnocolony founded on slaughtering natives, has been ethnically cleansing them throughout its entire existence, and is currently committing a genocide. Would you support the existence of Nazi Germany in any way, shape or form? Though it arguably does somewhat live on through modern Germany, seeing as how they’re also supporting the ongoing genocide.
Muslims, Jews, and Christians were already living in Palestine before Europe stated colonizing it. Decolonization of the region doesn’t necessarily have to mean the displacement of people already living in the colony. It would simply mean the removal of the fascist state and any control that the US and Europe have over it; as long as a separate government exists, these imperialist nations will exploit it. Again, referring to the PFLP:
The aim of the Palestinian liberation movement is to establish a democratic national state in which both Arabs and Jews will live as citizens with equal rights and obligations and that will constitute an integral part of the progressive democratic Arab national presence living peacefully with all forces of progress in the world.
The aim of the Palestinian liberation movement is to establish a democratic national state in which both Arabs and Jews will live as citizens with equal rights and obligations and that will constitute an integral part of the progressive democratic Arab national presence living peacefully with all forces of progress in the world.
That sounds great! That sounds like a solution. Unfortunately it’s not a very realistic one, especially since they’re a religious extremist group, and I don’t imagine their view of democracy to be actual democracy, nor can I imagine them supporting a separation of church and state. If that’s the case, then it just results in the same situation, but with the actors swapped, and the Jewish people living under Muslim oppression. Idk about you man, but I feel that the Jews have suffered at the hands of extremist groups enough for one people. But hey, maybe my assumptions are wrong, and they would legitimately establish a free and fair democracy. That would be an amazing resolution to the problem. But since we know it’s a multi-national problem, with Europe, the USA, and several Middle Eastern countries all wanting a piece of the pie, it seems very implausible. It’s a nice hope though, and I think most actual people would support it.
Yeah if your response to that is to keep bringing up their “religion” (the last avenue for liberal internalized racism; as conservatives bring up “culture”) of the people currently being slaughtered, you’re too far gone.
It is a huge driving force and a major part of their motivations. You can’t ignore it, and raising concerns about it is not racist. It’s not even a statement about race, it’s about religion. Rather than acknowledging it is a valid concern, you call me a racist? Okay then. I guess the conversation is over. Thanks for sharing your viewpoints though. You did raise valid points, and I felt that we were communicating well, and pretty much in agreement at the end there. Cheers.
Edit: and in case it was somehow unclear, I already stated that I think Israel should be held accountable for their human rights violations, and I think the situation over there is an enormous tragedy.
I completely agree with you there. The whole situation is fucked up, and neither side is making any effort to take the high road. I get that the hamas doesn’t have that luxury, being underdog rebels and all, but it’s not like their goals are benevolent either. One of their stated goals is the complete destruction of Israel, and the Jews. Israel, being the well armed and well funded nation, should be taking steps to respond in an ethical manner, but they’re sinking to the goals of their enemies. Or maybe those were always their goals anyways, and the hamas attack gave them an excuse. I don’t pretend to be an expert on Israel Hamas relations. I just don’t think that Biden can be judged too harshly for not immediately yanking decades of history with Israel. For one, if the US stops supporting Israel, Israel will likely cease to exist shortly afterwards. Anyways, I’m going way off the original topic, so I apologize for that. The overall point I’m trying to make is that I agree with you, but acknowledge the complexity of the situation.
False under their 2017 Hamas charter:
“16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.”
And can you blame them for conflating zionists with jews, when the ethnostate that has been slaughtering and oppressing the Palestinian people has been trying to do precisely that for the past 70+ years, and is backed by the world superpower as they try to do so?
Hamas’s tactics aren’t much different from the Viet Cong’s; attacking villages, taking hostages, and using tunnels and guerilla warfare. These are simply the most effective methods of driving out an occupying entity, and wouldn’t be necessary if the colony wasn’t there in the first place.
They have also done a far better job at avoiding killing children than Israel. The final death toll from the Oct 7 attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli “civilians” (mostly unarmed IDF conscripts), 373 armed IDF members, 71 foreigners and 36 children. While Israel has killed 22,000 Palestinians, 2/3 of whom are women and children.
Okay, so they want to destroy Israel, and Zionists, which they conflate with the Jewish people. It’s kind of splitting hairs. No? If their only issue was opposition to Israeli occupation, then it would be a lot easier to sympathize with them, but they are a Muslim extremist organization that wants the destruction of Israel.
That comes from this website , but can be found just about anywhere. Even your own document lists this opposition:
To be clear, I think the human rights violations perpetrated in Gaza are atrocious. The bombing of civilians and civilian targets is awful. But Hamas isn’t some benevolent organization that is taking a beating through no fault of their own, and they would perpetrate the same or worse against Israel if they had the power to do so.
It’s surprising to me that there’s so much pandering to Hamas on this website, from a group of people who are generally vehemently opposed to religion, and especially religious extremism. Hamas are religious extremists, with a violent perspective towards outsiders, and an abusive relationship with women. Ultimately what I’m saying is that what Israel is doing is wrong. Full-stop. Also, the goals of Hamas are wrong. Full-stop. That said, Biden’s involvement is circumstantial, since he inherited a government with a history of aid to Israel, and has merely not revoked it. I support Bernie’s proposition yesterday, to require the US Secretary of State to report on Israel’s humanitarian violations or withhold their aid. Unfortunately the Senate voted overwhelmingly against that measure, 71-11, if my memory serves correctly.
First, see my previous comment regarding the current Hamas charter. And second, you do realize saying that separating Jewish people from zionists is like “splitting hairs” is anti-semetic right? And that’s literally what the israeli government wants people to do.
Of course. “Israel” itself is a western colony in Palestine, and colonies have no right to exist. Its formation used common british colonization tactics [III], with companies literally named “Colonization Commission”, “Jewish Colonial Trust” and the like.
Theodor Herzl, founder of the colonial ideology he called “zionism”, was himself also just a racist colonizer by his own admission, and saw it as bringing ‘civilization’ to ‘barbarians’ as the rest of Europe did when they were colonizing and enslaving Africa and Asia:
That’s exactly what’s happening right now, all for US and European capitalist interests in the region, no matter how many people die in the process.
Zionist leaders fully acknowledged that Palestinian demographics were a core issue to the Zionist project, that the Palestinian population had to be removed at any cost, which is exactly what Israel did. What lead to the Palestinians being defenseless in this situation? Colonial Britain abetted the formation of heavily armed Zionist militias with soldiers numbering in the tens of thousands. The arms of Britain’s colonial military presence were inherited by the Zionist forces that it supported. All this while Britain summarily excecuted any Palestinian found in possession of a firearm.
This is not to mention the enthusiastic support of european antisemites for the Zionist project, or its strict early opposition by antifascist jews.
The idea that Israel has any right to exist on Palestinian land is a lie that has been so heavily proliferated, it has to be debunked when it should be paid no consideration at all.
From the PFLP’s 1969 Strategy For the Liberation of Palestine (very good read):
.
Because this is a lefty platform. We don’t like religions, but we’re not about to tell people that have been oppressed and killed for generations to not use it as an organizing and political tool to fight against colonialism and imperialism.
The Iranian Islamic revolution of 1979 overthrowing the US-backed monarchy was also deeply religious, and resulted in a drastically improved quality of life for everyone in the nation. Total literacy in Iran has also from 47% to 93% and female literacy has gone from 37% to 87%.
That wasn’t my opinion. What I read in their charter that you shared is that they associate all of Israel with Zionism. So their statement that they don’t want the destruction of the Jews, only the destruction of Zionism and Israel, is semantics. If they state that all of Israel is Zionist, and Israel is the home of the Jewish people, then they are still advocating the destruction of the Jewish people. That’s what I meant by “splitting hairs”.
What do you propose? The Jewish people have just as much right to exist as every other people. They have a long and storied history in that region, and eons long conflict with Palestine. This isn’t their first time occupying that region. So how is Palestine’s claim to the entire region of Israel more legitimate than Israel’s claim? Just because they have been there without Israel more recently? I do agree that Israel should pull out of Palestine, but I don’t agree that that includes the entire territory of their whole nation.
I strongly disagree. Women lost the majority of their rights because of that revolution, and live heavily oppressed now. People lost a lot of their liberty, and they’re subject to religious law, which is imposed upon them. My best friend’s wife is from Iran. Her parents still live in Iran. She has a very large family, all of whom I am close with, and not a single one of them views the Islamic State of Iran as an improvement to the conditions in the country prior to the revolution. Granted, their opinions aren’t necessarily representative of every person in Iran, but they’re as close as I can personally get to that situation. I trust their judgement and intellect, so I tend to believe the things they tell me.
We’re getting further away from the actual topic of discussion though, which was that Biden is funding and supporting genocide. I think I’ve already made my position on that clear, so I won’t burden you with it again.
I appreciate you taking the time to share your perspective with me, and discuss this in a civilized manner.
A government is not the people, specially not when it’s the government of a colony.
My opinion is the same as that of the PFLP’s book on the subject (again, great read, I suggest you go through it); until the inherently colonial and imperialist “state” of Israel is abolished, the oppression of the Palestinian people will not end.
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That was 1400 years ago. You do realize this doesn’t at all justify colonialism in the modern day, right? By this logic, could Chinese Americans and Indian Americans return to China and India and lay claim to those countries?
Even the racist colonizer that founded zionism didn’t try to use that as justification, and admitted full well that this is just colonization, as per my previous comment.
Again, the entirety of Israel is an irredeemable fascist, imperialist ethnocolony founded on slaughtering natives, has been ethnically cleansing them throughout its entire existence, and is currently committing a genocide. Would you support the existence of Nazi Germany in any way, shape or form? Though it arguably does somewhat live on through modern Germany, seeing as how they’re also supporting the ongoing genocide.
Muslims, Jews, and Christians were already living in Palestine before Europe stated colonizing it. Decolonization of the region doesn’t necessarily have to mean the displacement of people already living in the colony. It would simply mean the removal of the fascist state and any control that the US and Europe have over it; as long as a separate government exists, these imperialist nations will exploit it. Again, referring to the PFLP:
That sounds great! That sounds like a solution. Unfortunately it’s not a very realistic one, especially since they’re a religious extremist group, and I don’t imagine their view of democracy to be actual democracy, nor can I imagine them supporting a separation of church and state. If that’s the case, then it just results in the same situation, but with the actors swapped, and the Jewish people living under Muslim oppression. Idk about you man, but I feel that the Jews have suffered at the hands of extremist groups enough for one people. But hey, maybe my assumptions are wrong, and they would legitimately establish a free and fair democracy. That would be an amazing resolution to the problem. But since we know it’s a multi-national problem, with Europe, the USA, and several Middle Eastern countries all wanting a piece of the pie, it seems very implausible. It’s a nice hope though, and I think most actual people would support it.
Yeah if your response to that is to keep bringing up their “religion” (the last avenue for liberal internalized racism; as conservatives bring up “culture”) of the people currently being slaughtered, you’re too far gone.
It is a huge driving force and a major part of their motivations. You can’t ignore it, and raising concerns about it is not racist. It’s not even a statement about race, it’s about religion. Rather than acknowledging it is a valid concern, you call me a racist? Okay then. I guess the conversation is over. Thanks for sharing your viewpoints though. You did raise valid points, and I felt that we were communicating well, and pretty much in agreement at the end there. Cheers.
Edit: and in case it was somehow unclear, I already stated that I think Israel should be held accountable for their human rights violations, and I think the situation over there is an enormous tragedy.