Honest question, not trying to start an argument or anything, but what is extreme left when we’re talking about the current political landscape actually? Cause when I look at US politics I don’t see anything close to what I’d consider extreme going on on the left side. Maybe individual people with no significant political power talking about overthrowing the whole capitalist system but yeah, they don’t seem to have any actual political power.
Since we’ve spent the past 60 years talking about how horrific communism and extreme left is, even fighting multiple wars over it, we don’t really have a presence of far leftism.
I feel like it’s cyclical at this point. We hate the far left so much that people become fascist. A fascist dictator rises. Everyone realizes how this was a bad idea, and we equalize. Generations forget, and we progressively move right again til another fascist dictator comes in.
So no, there is no political power in America with true far left views, and our boomer gov would do anything to keep it that way.
This makes a lot of sense to me, the US has a good long history of being anti-communist so anything moving close to that has been villanized to the point that any kind of socialist idea faces push back and true leftist views go under-represented. It does feel like the overall movement in the US has been to the right though, but that could be my own recency bias.
The far left would be people like tankies, where they go so extreme they end up parroting a lot of the same rhetoric you see on the far right, just through a different lens. I’ve literally interacted with people on this site who believe North Korea is secretly a utopia that the West is trying to hide with propaganda.
They don’t really have much in the way of significant political representation in this country. The far right unfortunately does.
I’d consider commies, anarchists, and anti capitalists in general to just be leftists, not far leftists. It’s not really my thing but I can at least respect it.
So communism so hard it swings back around into fascism, yeah, I suppose that would be “far-left”. This may be my own limited experience talking though but I don’t think that’s a popular world view? Especially not in the US from what I can tell. I know there’s a lot of talk of “tankies” on Lemmy (still not 100% sure I understand what a tanky is), but I have yet to actually have a conversation with a legitimate one IRL or online. Far-right extremists on the other hand you can run into multiple times a day, so I know which side I have more concerns about.
The USA skews fairly right overall so you don’t really see a lot of them here. It’s a lot easier to find them in other countries.
I’ve definitely ran into a few people IRL who have gone far enough down the rabbit hole that I’ve heard them trot out the classic stuff about how “Stalin/Mao/Fidel/etc. was good actually”
No. There’s a spectrum of both communism and anarchism, their intersection tends to be known as anarcho-communism. An example of non-anarchist communism is vanguardist communism, which is inherently authoritarian (and anti-anarchist).
Can you name a large scale anarchist project with better rights than Cuba or Vietnam?
I’ll save you the effort: nah. Catalonia had concentration camps and “free” Ukraine was a bandit dictatorship that empowered kulaks to do pogroms. And they both got crushed partially due to a lack of centralization, and a lack of collaboration with and alienation from popular fronts.
“Tankies” as you put it, are the actual leftists advancing liberation, and not just jerking themselves off about how left they are, which is easy to do when their ideology remains only theoretical. When the rubber hits the road, anarchists fall somewhere between the brutality of socialist projects and capitalism.
As Trotsky said “anarchism is a rain coat that leaks only while it is wet”
I don’t believe in rights. at least, there’s no such thing as an inalienable right, since governments can and do take them away. I’m not even sure how to begin to answer your question given that I think that you’re talking about fictions. sort of like asking me which anarchist society had the most thetans, or protection spirits.
I didn’t think that I’d have to explain to somebody that the very existence of a hierarchy implies class structure. but I guess it’s true that some people still side with the wrong people at the second international.
Not even positive rights? You’re literally like “authority means it is by definition a class society” and you don’t believe in rights? How do you square that circle?
It honestly feels like this is a cheap rhetorical dismissal because you don’t want to compare what the actual material benefits of socialist revolutions are vs anarchist revolutions.
I didn’t think that I’d have to explain to somebody that the very existence of a hierarchy implies class structure.
And of course, there was no hierarchy in actual anarchist societies. /s.
Have you never heard of the concept of a transitional state? You know, that thing that socialists and anarchists both do, that involves hierarchy in repressing right wing elements? That socialists actually acknowledge the evil of, as opposed to pretending like they’re not doing a transitional state?
Or do you have a new super special plan to do classless society day one? If so I’d love to hear it.
nothing like moving the goalposts to end the workday.
i’m opposed to prefigurative theories of revolution. we don’t know what society will look like in every corner of the world without oppression. we do know what oppression is, and we can fight it.
one has nothing to do with the other, except that hierarchies sometimes pretend to respect (or grant)rights, but the fact that they have the discretion means the rights, themselves, are fictions.
I think the anarchists in Spain have more of a claim to define anarchism than you tbh. And they absolutely had authority. Hell, they had concentration camps.
It honestly feels like this is a cheap rhetorical dismissal because you don’t want to compare what the actual material benefits of socialist revolutions are vs anarchist revolutions.
that’s not what you proposed to use as a metric. i’m not sure how to quantify them and, frankly, or what a good measure would be, i guess.
i do know that i don’t trust anyone else to decide how i keep myself fed and safe. given the choice in constructing a revolution, i would empower individuals to a maximum degree and destroy concentrations of power wherever they’re found.
Imprecise definition aside, revolutions have to be able to defend themselves, and it could be argued Catalonia and Ukraine started in much better material positions and ended up falling apart because of problems with their political/economic structure, while the semi-centralized democracy and rationalized economy of the USSR allowed them to succeed in defending itself from the Nazis (but not, ultimately, from the US empire, however Vietnam, Cuba, laos, and China succeeded, and the DPRK partially succeeded)
They’re analogous to the far right is the main thing. Anarchism/communism/etc. is the gateway to such views. Most lefists don’t go that far (good) but some do. Same thing with the far right, they start off as libertarian, ancap, or run of the mill conservatives etc. and end up going into cuckoo land after they watch too much cable news and facebook conspiracies.
In the USA, we have an environment where it’s far easier and more beneficial to those in power to co-opt people into right wing extremism than left wing extremism, hence the outsized representation. You can definitely find countries where the opposite is true, it’s a fairly big issue in south american and southeast asian nations. What’s interesting to me is that the end goals are nearly the same, which is to implement an authoritarian state where there is a powerful insular ingroup that can exploit the masses to their benefit.
the end goals are nearly the same, which is to implement an authoritarian state
first, a bit of snark: there is a cure for political illiteracy.
then, a rebuttal: communism is a stateless classless moneyless society. there is no such thing as a communist state. for many anarchists, this is indistinguishable from anarchism.
The far lefists aren’t commies though, that’s my point. They play like they are, but really they’re just authoritarian fascists. Commies are just regular leftists, and marxist schools of thought are a totally reasonable worldview to carry even if I don’t agree with some points of it.
Statelessness is the end goal of communism, yes. I have met so-called communists that think strongarm authoritarianism is the way to get there, and for some reason believe that those authoritarians would willingly give up their power once they’ve achieved a position where they could implement said stateless society. This is basically what happened in the USSR and China, and is decidedly not the path Marx himself proposed for achieving it. A stateless communist society in Marxist thought is simply the natural progression after late stage capitalist societies, which is not a step you can simply skip over.
I don’t necessarily agree with the idea, but I think it’s important to be educated on a wide variety of schools of political thought.
if you’re not building a classless stateless society, you’re not a leftist. I’d be just as offended about being called a liberal as being called a tankie. statism is bad.
They’re analogous to the far right is the main thing. Anarchism/communism/etc. is the gateway to such views. Most lefists don’t go that far (good) but some do. Same thing with the far right, they start off as libertarian, ancap, or run of the mill conservatives etc. and end up going into cuckoo land after they watch too much cable news and facebook conspiracies.
i don’t think there is a reputable source to substantiate this.
I don’t know of any particular sources but I do have anecdotes of watching friends and family fall into these traps on both ends of the spectrum. A couple of my leftist friends have started treading dangerously close to some pretty sour viewpoints. I mostly see it as pro-accelerationism, everything I don’t like is capitalism/neoliberalism/western values, and are totally blind to the influence propaganda has on them and the weak points in their own ideologies.
On the right, I’ve watched several of my family members go down the fox news alt right rabbit hole and end up at similarly dumb viewpoints. They also want a revolution, except everything they don’t like is liberals/communism/woke etc. They are also totally blind to the influence of propaganda and the weak points in their ideologies. The media machine in the US is set up to make this pipeline far more efficient than the leftist version.
They mostly don’t like the same things, but they’re pulling in opposite directions, and each is convinced that when the revolution comes, their side is the one that will win out, when in reality, we’ll probably just end up with the same shit, different coat of paint.
Me? I think there’s concepts we can borrow from many ideologies that can help us solve specific problems and bring about incremental change until we reach true propserity. The socialists and commies get some stuff right, so do the libertarians, the anarchists, the ancaps, etc. The only thing I think will definitely not help is tearing it all down. There is no silver bullet, it’s all just problems that are met with ever improving solutions. Sometimes we take two steps forward one step back, but I don’t think anyone can deny that the world at large is better off now than when it was almost completely ruled by monarchy, bloody violence, and slavery a few hundred years back.
Exactly this. I’ve been calling them the “burn it down” group. It’s not a fun ideology… sure they don’t have a lot of power today, but that’s how these things work. If they have power it’s too late. It’s worth knowing that this is a growing movement with real people. They are my cousins, coworkers and a few of my friends lol. Not just a social media rhetoric or scare tactic.
What’s interesting to me is that the end goals are nearly the same, which is to implement an authoritarian state where there is a powerful insular ingroup that can exploit the masses to their benefit.
Unlike centrist liberals, who want to create a non hierarchical, stateless society with no exploitation or in groups…
Nowhere did I claim such a thing. Some leftist groups want the whole stateless thing. Go even further left into crazy land though and you run into strongarm authoritarianism.
I’d call myself a liberal in the modern sense, I certainly don’t believe that large scale stateless societies are viable but there are definitely things we can learn from ideologies further to the left than what I subscribe to.
Authoritarianism is by definition illiberal and anyone who is authoritarian or supports authoritarianism is not liberal no matter what they claim to be. Centrism is also a meme, anyone who claims to be a centrist is usually just a stan for authoritarians in disguise.
The core tenant of liberalism is respect for the autonomy and civil liberties of the individual and consent of the governed to the rules of the government through the machinations of democracy. Any system claiming to be liberal without subscribing to that is a farce.
The same could be said of the “far left”. They claim to be leftists, and they might have started out as such, but they have stepped out into crazy land and end up supporting things antithetical to the ideologies they claim to subscribe to.
Authoritarianism is by definition illiberal and anyone who is authoritarian or supports authoritarianism is not liberal no matter what they claim to be. Centrism is also a meme, anyone who claims to be a centrist is usually just a stan for authoritarians in disguise.
Ok, but now you’re just fiddling with semantics so that your thesis is tautologically true. Sure, if you redefine your terms in a circular way so that authoritarianism means iliberalism and iliberalism means authoritarianism, then obviously its true, but it’s not very meaningful. It also doesn’t really make sense in regards to your original argument that the extremes of left and right are authoritarian, because, by your definition of liberal there is not now and never as been a liberal society. The USA incarcerates a volume of people that dwarfs any of the called ‘authoritarian’ nations, comparable to the Soviet Gulag system at the height of the purges. It also summarily executes people for minor crimes all the time. It frequently overthrows governments and engages in mass killings, including currently committing a genocide. Beyond that, it unilaterally deprives its people of access to the Earths commons using unilateral and lethal force, as well as hording vast quantities of stolen wealth from its rightful owners and using that wealth to oppress them. Other ‘liberal’ countries may not go to the same level, but they all do the same things. They have all been authoritarian and thus not liberal, which would make liberalism an extremist left wing ideology.
The core tenant of liberalism is respect for the autonomy and civil liberties of the individual and consent of the governed to the rules of the government through the machinations of democracy.
That’s all the tenants of leftism, including the ‘extreme’ leftism you call ‘crazy land’. You’re also leaving out the important caveats: autonomy as defined by liberals (So not, for example, autonomy to freely roam the earth and make use of its commons without interruption), civil liberties as defined by liberals (so not, for example, the liberty to make use of the means of production as you like), and consent of the governed as defined by liberals (so not, for example, the ability to ignore the degrees of government that you do not consent to).
The same could be said of the “far left”. They claim to be leftists, and they might have started out as such, but they have stepped out into crazy land and end up supporting things antithetical to the ideologies they claim to subscribe to.
Are you willing to apply this standard to ‘moderate’ liberals; are you willing to extend it to yourself? Will you declare anyone who shows even critical support for existing failed attempts at liberalism (which is all of them, by your definition), as having “stepped out into crazy land and end up supporting things antithetical to the ideologies they claim to subscribe to.”? Do you condemn people who support George Washington the same way as you do people who support Lenin? Do you condemn people who support Lincoln the same way as you do people who support Castro? Do you condemn people who support Churchill the same as people who support Pol Pot? Do you condemn the French Revolution and the American Revolution the same as the Russian and Chinese?
Because if not, I can only conclude that it’s not ‘authoritarianism’ that you consider “crazy land”; it’s just political heterodoxy in general.
The original anti-vax movement was always weird to me, the issue screams “muh freedums” so I always found it strange that it came from the left. I guess it goes into the same box as all the hippy dippy wellness stuff, which does have some things like meditation that turn out to have real benefits, but there are just some people who take to all that really strongly without evidence.
Anti-intellectualism I always considered a right leaning thing, like, you always hear republicans saying universities are tools of left-wing indoctrination and not the other way around? But I suppose hippies had that “don’t trust the man” thing going on.
Are hippies how people’s idea of the far left formed? My understanding is the whole hippy movement, while memorable, was quite short lived?
How did it come from the left? The “vaccines cause autism” wasn’t connected to any political side as far as I’m aware. Just because you’re a hippie doesn’t mean you’re left-wing, or politically conscious at all even.
I might be wrong but I always associated hippies with left-leaning, liberal politics. And I’m not sure where the association between the left and the anti-vax movement came from but I know it was a thing that was frequently made fun of. I even remember catching a Simpson’s episode where they went somewhere and commented on how progressive/liberal it was (forget the specific word), then Marge asked a random woman if she vaccinated her kids and she responded “of course” then Marge said “and not TOO liberal”.
Now that I think about it, maybe the political association of the original anti-vax movement was manufactured?
I think both extremes may have different reasons but the same outcome.
For the anti intellectualism on the left, it stems from real issues like the Henrietta Lacks and relation with race, and generally more that is talked about with critical race theory. Fwiw it is all important to address, but there is a strong contingent that generalizes it too far and will distrust all of medicine, science, education, and academic research.
I also know a lot of far left people who would refuse to vote for Bernie because he was white male
I also know a lot of far left people who would refuse to vote for Bernie because he was white male
Do you actually know a lot of people in real life who think like this? Or is it just particularly loud groups of them on social media?
I am a member of socialist organization and am acquainted with a lot of people on the far left(anarchists, communists, socialists, etc.), and I’ve never heard this sentiment. I’ve heard other complaints about him not being leftist enough, but nothing about his race.
I do know some, maybe it’s because I live in a university town. I think you were interested in today’s far left, and those are the ones I’ve been frustrated with.
To a lesser amount, I also know one or two people who identify as communist. The best quote from them was, maybe if trump were to be president, then we would finally collapse the global economy so then every one would start over.
It does stem from a feeling that the current system is too broken to fix. They are valid feelings and I can only presume our lack of progress is because the Republicans have always had so much power paired with general concept that change is a slow process. But these people are tired of waiting and hoping for drastic change.
I feel like we’re all already moved on from this discussion, but I JUST came across mention of the original anti-vax movement and hippies on “Some More News” (aka Cody’s Showdy), felt it was interesting to run into a day after this discussion: https://youtu.be/nrsysN_LBoo?si=rqEEZCGLQ8wH2GNV&t=2781 (comes up at 46:21 in case the time stamp doesn’t work).
Honest question, not trying to start an argument or anything, but what is extreme left when we’re talking about the current political landscape actually? Cause when I look at US politics I don’t see anything close to what I’d consider extreme going on on the left side. Maybe individual people with no significant political power talking about overthrowing the whole capitalist system but yeah, they don’t seem to have any actual political power.
Since we’ve spent the past 60 years talking about how horrific communism and extreme left is, even fighting multiple wars over it, we don’t really have a presence of far leftism.
I feel like it’s cyclical at this point. We hate the far left so much that people become fascist. A fascist dictator rises. Everyone realizes how this was a bad idea, and we equalize. Generations forget, and we progressively move right again til another fascist dictator comes in.
So no, there is no political power in America with true far left views, and our boomer gov would do anything to keep it that way.
This makes a lot of sense to me, the US has a good long history of being anti-communist so anything moving close to that has been villanized to the point that any kind of socialist idea faces push back and true leftist views go under-represented. It does feel like the overall movement in the US has been to the right though, but that could be my own recency bias.
The far left would be people like tankies, where they go so extreme they end up parroting a lot of the same rhetoric you see on the far right, just through a different lens. I’ve literally interacted with people on this site who believe North Korea is secretly a utopia that the West is trying to hide with propaganda.
They don’t really have much in the way of significant political representation in this country. The far right unfortunately does.
I’d consider commies, anarchists, and anti capitalists in general to just be leftists, not far leftists. It’s not really my thing but I can at least respect it.
So communism so hard it swings back around into fascism, yeah, I suppose that would be “far-left”. This may be my own limited experience talking though but I don’t think that’s a popular world view? Especially not in the US from what I can tell. I know there’s a lot of talk of “tankies” on Lemmy (still not 100% sure I understand what a tanky is), but I have yet to actually have a conversation with a legitimate one IRL or online. Far-right extremists on the other hand you can run into multiple times a day, so I know which side I have more concerns about.
The USA skews fairly right overall so you don’t really see a lot of them here. It’s a lot easier to find them in other countries.
I’ve definitely ran into a few people IRL who have gone far enough down the rabbit hole that I’ve heard them trot out the classic stuff about how “Stalin/Mao/Fidel/etc. was good actually”
I don’t consider tankies leftists. I’m an anarchist. I consider myself far left.
Just like there are many brands of far right (nazis, religious fanatic), there are many brands of far-left - anarcho-socialists, communists etc.
anarchism and communism are the same thing.
No. There’s a spectrum of both communism and anarchism, their intersection tends to be known as anarcho-communism. An example of non-anarchist communism is vanguardist communism, which is inherently authoritarian (and anti-anarchist).
a communist society is classless, moneyless and stateless. anything else isn’t communism.
So? That doesn’t automatically make communists into anarchists (nor vice-versa for that matter).
I would disagree. clearly I do.
Can you name a large scale anarchist project with better rights than Cuba or Vietnam?
I’ll save you the effort: nah. Catalonia had concentration camps and “free” Ukraine was a bandit dictatorship that empowered kulaks to do pogroms. And they both got crushed partially due to a lack of centralization, and a lack of collaboration with and alienation from popular fronts.
“Tankies” as you put it, are the actual leftists advancing liberation, and not just jerking themselves off about how left they are, which is easy to do when their ideology remains only theoretical. When the rubber hits the road, anarchists fall somewhere between the brutality of socialist projects and capitalism.
As Trotsky said “anarchism is a rain coat that leaks only while it is wet”
I don’t believe in rights. at least, there’s no such thing as an inalienable right, since governments can and do take them away. I’m not even sure how to begin to answer your question given that I think that you’re talking about fictions. sort of like asking me which anarchist society had the most thetans, or protection spirits.
I didn’t think that I’d have to explain to somebody that the very existence of a hierarchy implies class structure. but I guess it’s true that some people still side with the wrong people at the second international.
Not even positive rights? You’re literally like “authority means it is by definition a class society” and you don’t believe in rights? How do you square that circle?
It honestly feels like this is a cheap rhetorical dismissal because you don’t want to compare what the actual material benefits of socialist revolutions are vs anarchist revolutions.
And of course, there was no hierarchy in actual anarchist societies. /s.
Have you never heard of the concept of a transitional state? You know, that thing that socialists and anarchists both do, that involves hierarchy in repressing right wing elements? That socialists actually acknowledge the evil of, as opposed to pretending like they’re not doing a transitional state?
Or do you have a new super special plan to do classless society day one? If so I’d love to hear it.
it’s not new. gallianists have been at it for a century.
Sorry, I set the bar too low.
Feasible plans for a classless society day one.
How far have they gotten in that century? Because honestly the whole “at it for a century” thing reeks of failure.
they got the fucking arch duke (and dozens of other heads of state). they blew up wallstreet. i think these are pretty big accomplishments.
nothing like moving the goalposts to end the workday.
i’m opposed to prefigurative theories of revolution. we don’t know what society will look like in every corner of the world without oppression. we do know what oppression is, and we can fight it.
no
one has nothing to do with the other, except that hierarchies sometimes pretend to respect (or grant)rights, but the fact that they have the discretion means the rights, themselves, are fictions.
right
we all know about the bootmaker, but i would say if there is an oppressive hierarchy, it’s not anarchist.
I think the anarchists in Spain have more of a claim to define anarchism than you tbh. And they absolutely had authority. Hell, they had concentration camps.
no. we should judge people by their actions. we should judge ideologies by their propositions.
you don’t get to define what i am.
that’s not what you proposed to use as a metric. i’m not sure how to quantify them and, frankly, or what a good measure would be, i guess.
i do know that i don’t trust anyone else to decide how i keep myself fed and safe. given the choice in constructing a revolution, i would empower individuals to a maximum degree and destroy concentrations of power wherever they’re found.
Thats some right libertarian hyper-individualist hogwash. Stop being alienated from your fellow workers.
So, let’s say the workers form Soviets. Those Soviets have to be destroyed, right?
it is going to depend, isn’t it? are the soviets operated with consent and consensus?
i already explained i have no illusions that i can dictate what it’s going to look like after the revolution. i do know what i won’t tolerate.
i have no problem working with my neighbors. i have big problems with someone tellingme how we should do that.
yes. it’s why we split at the second international. i wish you all would give up on the transitional state.
Can you name a large scale anarchist project that wouldn’t qualify as a transitional state?
this is a setup for a no-true-scotsman. i’ll talk to you about anarchist societies, but i won’t let you define them out of existence.
being invaded by imperialists is not an indictment of a society or its structure.
Imprecise definition aside, revolutions have to be able to defend themselves, and it could be argued Catalonia and Ukraine started in much better material positions and ended up falling apart because of problems with their political/economic structure, while the semi-centralized democracy and rationalized economy of the USSR allowed them to succeed in defending itself from the Nazis (but not, ultimately, from the US empire, however Vietnam, Cuba, laos, and China succeeded, and the DPRK partially succeeded)
They’re analogous to the far right is the main thing. Anarchism/communism/etc. is the gateway to such views. Most lefists don’t go that far (good) but some do. Same thing with the far right, they start off as libertarian, ancap, or run of the mill conservatives etc. and end up going into cuckoo land after they watch too much cable news and facebook conspiracies.
In the USA, we have an environment where it’s far easier and more beneficial to those in power to co-opt people into right wing extremism than left wing extremism, hence the outsized representation. You can definitely find countries where the opposite is true, it’s a fairly big issue in south american and southeast asian nations. What’s interesting to me is that the end goals are nearly the same, which is to implement an authoritarian state where there is a powerful insular ingroup that can exploit the masses to their benefit.
first, a bit of snark: there is a cure for political illiteracy.
then, a rebuttal: communism is a stateless classless moneyless society. there is no such thing as a communist state. for many anarchists, this is indistinguishable from anarchism.
The far lefists aren’t commies though, that’s my point. They play like they are, but really they’re just authoritarian fascists. Commies are just regular leftists, and marxist schools of thought are a totally reasonable worldview to carry even if I don’t agree with some points of it.
Statelessness is the end goal of communism, yes. I have met so-called communists that think strongarm authoritarianism is the way to get there, and for some reason believe that those authoritarians would willingly give up their power once they’ve achieved a position where they could implement said stateless society. This is basically what happened in the USSR and China, and is decidedly not the path Marx himself proposed for achieving it. A stateless communist society in Marxist thought is simply the natural progression after late stage capitalist societies, which is not a step you can simply skip over.
I don’t necessarily agree with the idea, but I think it’s important to be educated on a wide variety of schools of political thought.
if you’re not building a classless stateless society, you’re not a leftist. I’d be just as offended about being called a liberal as being called a tankie. statism is bad.
i don’t think there is a reputable source to substantiate this.
I don’t know of any particular sources but I do have anecdotes of watching friends and family fall into these traps on both ends of the spectrum. A couple of my leftist friends have started treading dangerously close to some pretty sour viewpoints. I mostly see it as pro-accelerationism, everything I don’t like is capitalism/neoliberalism/western values, and are totally blind to the influence propaganda has on them and the weak points in their own ideologies.
On the right, I’ve watched several of my family members go down the fox news alt right rabbit hole and end up at similarly dumb viewpoints. They also want a revolution, except everything they don’t like is liberals/communism/woke etc. They are also totally blind to the influence of propaganda and the weak points in their ideologies. The media machine in the US is set up to make this pipeline far more efficient than the leftist version.
They mostly don’t like the same things, but they’re pulling in opposite directions, and each is convinced that when the revolution comes, their side is the one that will win out, when in reality, we’ll probably just end up with the same shit, different coat of paint.
Me? I think there’s concepts we can borrow from many ideologies that can help us solve specific problems and bring about incremental change until we reach true propserity. The socialists and commies get some stuff right, so do the libertarians, the anarchists, the ancaps, etc. The only thing I think will definitely not help is tearing it all down. There is no silver bullet, it’s all just problems that are met with ever improving solutions. Sometimes we take two steps forward one step back, but I don’t think anyone can deny that the world at large is better off now than when it was almost completely ruled by monarchy, bloody violence, and slavery a few hundred years back.
Exactly this. I’ve been calling them the “burn it down” group. It’s not a fun ideology… sure they don’t have a lot of power today, but that’s how these things work. If they have power it’s too late. It’s worth knowing that this is a growing movement with real people. They are my cousins, coworkers and a few of my friends lol. Not just a social media rhetoric or scare tactic.
Unlike centrist liberals, who want to create a non hierarchical, stateless society with no exploitation or in groups…
Nowhere did I claim such a thing. Some leftist groups want the whole stateless thing. Go even further left into crazy land though and you run into strongarm authoritarianism.
I’d call myself a liberal in the modern sense, I certainly don’t believe that large scale stateless societies are viable but there are definitely things we can learn from ideologies further to the left than what I subscribe to.
All leftists want the the stateless thing.
Liberals and centrists also do the “strongarm authoritarian” thing all the fucking time.
Authoritarianism is by definition illiberal and anyone who is authoritarian or supports authoritarianism is not liberal no matter what they claim to be. Centrism is also a meme, anyone who claims to be a centrist is usually just a stan for authoritarians in disguise.
The core tenant of liberalism is respect for the autonomy and civil liberties of the individual and consent of the governed to the rules of the government through the machinations of democracy. Any system claiming to be liberal without subscribing to that is a farce.
The same could be said of the “far left”. They claim to be leftists, and they might have started out as such, but they have stepped out into crazy land and end up supporting things antithetical to the ideologies they claim to subscribe to.
Ok, but now you’re just fiddling with semantics so that your thesis is tautologically true. Sure, if you redefine your terms in a circular way so that authoritarianism means iliberalism and iliberalism means authoritarianism, then obviously its true, but it’s not very meaningful. It also doesn’t really make sense in regards to your original argument that the extremes of left and right are authoritarian, because, by your definition of liberal there is not now and never as been a liberal society. The USA incarcerates a volume of people that dwarfs any of the called ‘authoritarian’ nations, comparable to the Soviet Gulag system at the height of the purges. It also summarily executes people for minor crimes all the time. It frequently overthrows governments and engages in mass killings, including currently committing a genocide. Beyond that, it unilaterally deprives its people of access to the Earths commons using unilateral and lethal force, as well as hording vast quantities of stolen wealth from its rightful owners and using that wealth to oppress them. Other ‘liberal’ countries may not go to the same level, but they all do the same things. They have all been authoritarian and thus not liberal, which would make liberalism an extremist left wing ideology.
That’s all the tenants of leftism, including the ‘extreme’ leftism you call ‘crazy land’. You’re also leaving out the important caveats: autonomy as defined by liberals (So not, for example, autonomy to freely roam the earth and make use of its commons without interruption), civil liberties as defined by liberals (so not, for example, the liberty to make use of the means of production as you like), and consent of the governed as defined by liberals (so not, for example, the ability to ignore the degrees of government that you do not consent to).
Are you willing to apply this standard to ‘moderate’ liberals; are you willing to extend it to yourself? Will you declare anyone who shows even critical support for existing failed attempts at liberalism (which is all of them, by your definition), as having “stepped out into crazy land and end up supporting things antithetical to the ideologies they claim to subscribe to.”? Do you condemn people who support George Washington the same way as you do people who support Lenin? Do you condemn people who support Lincoln the same way as you do people who support Castro? Do you condemn people who support Churchill the same as people who support Pol Pot? Do you condemn the French Revolution and the American Revolution the same as the Russian and Chinese?
Because if not, I can only conclude that it’s not ‘authoritarianism’ that you consider “crazy land”; it’s just political heterodoxy in general.
I think the anti-vax movement started from far left. Wanting to be so close to nature and protecting the body.
Also anti intellectualism, where science embodies the establishment that oppresses us.
These are very real things that the far left made impacts.
But the far right loves these too now, they just co opted them.
The original anti-vax movement was always weird to me, the issue screams “muh freedums” so I always found it strange that it came from the left. I guess it goes into the same box as all the hippy dippy wellness stuff, which does have some things like meditation that turn out to have real benefits, but there are just some people who take to all that really strongly without evidence.
Anti-intellectualism I always considered a right leaning thing, like, you always hear republicans saying universities are tools of left-wing indoctrination and not the other way around? But I suppose hippies had that “don’t trust the man” thing going on.
Are hippies how people’s idea of the far left formed? My understanding is the whole hippy movement, while memorable, was quite short lived?
How did it come from the left? The “vaccines cause autism” wasn’t connected to any political side as far as I’m aware. Just because you’re a hippie doesn’t mean you’re left-wing, or politically conscious at all even.
I might be wrong but I always associated hippies with left-leaning, liberal politics. And I’m not sure where the association between the left and the anti-vax movement came from but I know it was a thing that was frequently made fun of. I even remember catching a Simpson’s episode where they went somewhere and commented on how progressive/liberal it was (forget the specific word), then Marge asked a random woman if she vaccinated her kids and she responded “of course” then Marge said “and not TOO liberal”.
Now that I think about it, maybe the political association of the original anti-vax movement was manufactured?
I think both extremes may have different reasons but the same outcome.
For the anti intellectualism on the left, it stems from real issues like the Henrietta Lacks and relation with race, and generally more that is talked about with critical race theory. Fwiw it is all important to address, but there is a strong contingent that generalizes it too far and will distrust all of medicine, science, education, and academic research.
I also know a lot of far left people who would refuse to vote for Bernie because he was white male
Do you actually know a lot of people in real life who think like this? Or is it just particularly loud groups of them on social media?
I am a member of socialist organization and am acquainted with a lot of people on the far left(anarchists, communists, socialists, etc.), and I’ve never heard this sentiment. I’ve heard other complaints about him not being leftist enough, but nothing about his race.
I do know some, maybe it’s because I live in a university town. I think you were interested in today’s far left, and those are the ones I’ve been frustrated with.
To a lesser amount, I also know one or two people who identify as communist. The best quote from them was, maybe if trump were to be president, then we would finally collapse the global economy so then every one would start over.
It does stem from a feeling that the current system is too broken to fix. They are valid feelings and I can only presume our lack of progress is because the Republicans have always had so much power paired with general concept that change is a slow process. But these people are tired of waiting and hoping for drastic change.
you could look up the rainbow family. hippies are still around.
Oh wow! and they’re still having annual meetings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Family
I feel like we’re all already moved on from this discussion, but I JUST came across mention of the original anti-vax movement and hippies on “Some More News” (aka Cody’s Showdy), felt it was interesting to run into a day after this discussion: https://youtu.be/nrsysN_LBoo?si=rqEEZCGLQ8wH2GNV&t=2781 (comes up at 46:21 in case the time stamp doesn’t work).
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/nrsysN_LBoo?si=rqEEZCGLQ8wH2GNV&t=2781
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
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