I DM’d a group that tried to optimize every situation, and every turn off combat. That’s okay as long as it stays fun, but once they start spinning their wheels, or one player turns combat into a slog, then I take measures.
Outside of combat, that means the real world keeps ticking along. Usually that just means NPCs ask the PCs to stop blocking the street, or a beggar starts asking for money, or the person they’re chasing fades further into the distance.
Combat in 5e can be a slog (even with the usual DM busywork), so I’ll give players a visual countdown and then move their turn to after the next character in initiative order. As soon as they start doing something, I stop, but I want to set the expectation that this is a high stakes scenario and they need to keep up with the pacing.
I’ve spoken with my players and they’re cool with it.
I’ve got optimizer tendencies, but we’ve also got another member who is 100% “What would my character do in this high stress situation with the knowledge they have” and I’ve found myself leaning that way during combat more and more.
I will still scrutinize everything outside of combat though, and I’m thankful for the IRL time pressure to get me out of that.
I think there can be some intra-group tension when half the group is going for “how can we win this fight cleanly with minimal resources spent?” and half is going for “what would my character do? What would be dramatic?”
It’s something to clear up in session 0, I think.
My personal fantasy right now is being part of a highly skilled and competent team. I’m tired of always being the three stooges.
Also bad: when part of the group wants to play for clean victory, and part of the group does but it really bad at it.
Working through options isn’t necessarily bad, but it can disrupt the game and make it less enjoyable for other players. The idea with adding time pressure is to add to the fun.
I DM’d a group that tried to optimize every situation, and every turn off combat. That’s okay as long as it stays fun, but once they start spinning their wheels, or one player turns combat into a slog, then I take measures.
In my experience (and from what I’ve heard of other groups) optimisers are rarely the cause of this problem, usually it’s the more casual or inexperienced players.
I read this as time turner at first and was a bit confused.
I like shenanigans characters, where you always have a trick up your sleeves. I’m not a super-powerful D&D character in real life, so it will take me a moment to come up with those tricks and put them in my sleeves. As such, I think of turn timers as a problem, not a solution.
I saw advice which was just that, whenever someone starts their turn, give a nudge to the person next down the line. That way, they’ll have more time to plan before their turn starts, and it’s not like they were doing anything then anyway. Way better.
I am totally planning my next turn the moment I finish one. It sorta stinks because someone does something and its like. shit. that derails my plan.
But at least then you still have the broken remnants of what used to be a plan, that you can adapt off of.
One of the players in my game consistently waits until his turn comes up before he even surveys the map and begins forming a plan, and I’m about to kick him out of the game about it. We cover an average of two rooms of exploration per 4-5 hour session because of this.
I don’t even get that as every round is only so much. I mean its usually a few rounds just to get to the real position you want.
The idea of a timer is that you already do that, so that you’re ready to go when yours comes up.
And I don’t know any GM who won’t give you a break from the timer if the person who went before you changed something huge. Like, if someone summoned a demon, you blew up a bridge, you get some extra time to work out a new turn…
That’s not the point of the timer. The point of a timer is to cut off people taking too much time. As a side effect, people are pre-planning their turns so they don’t get cut off by the timer. The solution is the pre-planning, which does not need a timer, nor is it a guaranteed result of a timer.
There was a problem, and in trying to fix it, the DM created a second problem. The players then found the actual solution to the first problem to avoid the second. The DM then took credit for fixing the problem.
Do you remember that episode where Homer became Mr Burns’ assistant, and was so bad that Mr Burns became more independent so he wouldn’t need Homer’s help? It’s basically like that.
This was a weirdly aggressive comment.
The solution is the pre-planning, which does not need a timer, nor is it a guaranteed result of a timer.
You cannot make players pre-plan. The timer encourages pre-planning, or at least rapid decision making on the fly. Both have the desired result of the game moving at a quicker pace.
It also has the benefit of creating an impartial tool for measuring, instead of relying on subjective “You’re taking a long time.” It is harder to argue with a clock. This is an advantage.
There was a problem, and in trying to fix it, the DM created a second problem.
What is the second problem?
I don’t really get how my comment is aggressive, since all I did was point out a type of problem GM. There’s a suspiciously defensive reply to it that tries to paint it as aggressive, but I disagree.
Yes, you can make players pre-plan. You nudge them.
The timer encourages speed by penalising a slow, methodical approach. You might avoid the penalty by pre-planning, or you might avoid it by taking a simpler action every time. Both make the game move faster, but one makes the game less fun, especially for players like me who enjoy a good shenanigan.
Why does it matter how much time everyone takes? Outside of an argument that shouldn’t happen in the first place, why would you need to know? Remember that everyone’s moving at a different speed because there’s a timer, so you can only measure post-timer, not pre-.
The GM tried to fix long turns by bringing in a timer. The first problem is the long turns, and the second problem is the timer. Pre-planning solves the problem of there being a timer.
The timer also discourages kinds of interactions or engagement with other players that may actually be welcomed, entertaining, and appreciated. It also takes a significant amount of the responsibility of being a referee off the GM’s shoulders - you know, that thing that they’re actually charged with doing - and turns it over to a clock that they can just use as a cudgle.
It’s the classic toxic nerd shit of turning something that should be a social encounter into a souless mechanical system.
Yes, you can make players pre-plan. You nudge them.
No amount of nudging will make some players do anything. Some players are obstinate and frankly not very good, but honestly the solution to “this player won’t stop looking at their phone and their turns take forever” may be to remove them from the group.
Why does it matter how much time everyone takes?
I don’t want to wait 5 minutes for someone to dither and dither and finally decide “I attack”
Wow that’s an incredibly snobby snobby answer, and I’ll just assume it just came out wrong somehow.
And honestly, I couldn’t agree less. I don’t want to make everyone’s problem that Sally Slowpoke isn’t paying attention or taking a super long time. I want them to fix it themselves.
Poking the next person creates a reliance, and worse, an excuse (“they didn’t poke me, how was I supposed to know?”), putting down a timer makes it clear that the onus is on you. If you didn’t pay attention, that’s your fault.
And I’ll go one further: I think it’s very disrespectful to make everyone wait while you read stuff that you could have read earlier. If you need to check the exact requirements of some obscure spell, sure. But if you need to look up Fireball for the 6th time this game and we all have to wait again while you do it, that’s kind of a dick move.
I run a 30 second timer before you have to start doing stuff. If you’re not finished, that’s fine, but you have to do a thing within 30 seconds. I don’t want everyone waiting because you didn’t prepare, when they all did.
I can fucking tell you run a 30 second timer. This is absolutely the mindset of someone with a 30 second timer.
I find it interesting that you say “the onus is on [the players]” as a benefit, because the main problem you listed for actually talking to them is that they might say you were at fault if you forget. You want it to be that, if anything goes wrong, it’s only because of what other people did. You don’t want to be responsible.
And yet, something did go wrong becaue of your actions. You want everyone to have quick turns, so you set up a timer, and one of your players is using fireball over and over. As if it’s a default action they took due to being rushed. Like I said would happen in the first place.
(Oh, sidenote? Calling someone a snob, then insulting people for being slow or forgetful, is pretty fucking hypocritical)
You’re… Reading a lot of things I never said.
I can fucking tell you run a 30 second timer. This is absolutely the mindset of someone with a 30 second timer.
You want everyone to have quick turns, so you set up a timer
The timer wasn’t imposed from upon the high seat of the Almighty GM, it’s a thing everyone at the table decided on, because we all want to keep the combat flowing. I know it must look impossible to you, but all the players like taking their turn, and not waiting. Hell, one of the players brings the thing.
one of your players is using fireball over and over. As if it’s a default action they took due to being rushed. Like I said would happen in the first place.
Nobody is “taking Fireball as a default action”. I said nobody wanted to wait for someone to look up a commonly used spell yet again, when you could have done that before, or just made a note or something. You literally just made this up after ignoring half of my paragraph.
I find it interesting that you say “the onus is on [the players]” as a benefit, because the main problem you listed for actually talking to them is that they might say you were at fault if you forget. You want it to be that, if anything goes wrong, it’s only because of what other people did. You don’t want to be responsible.
You are right that nobody at the table, including me, wants to take the responsibility for someone else paying attention. We’re all adults, and neither our children or parents are at the table. We’re there to play a game, not to constantly remind other adults of what they’re supposed to do.
Also, small detail, it’s a 30 second timer to START. We don’t watching someone do stuff, we mind watching someone look at paper.
I don’t understand why people wanting things to move along upsets you so much? Is a timer such a horrible thing that it actually makes you angry at someone who doesn’t play like you do? I called the reply snobby because you seem to believe we are Doing It Wrong, and that’s an incredibly snobby thing to do.
That is a long fucking comment to ask why someone ELSE cares so much.
If literally everyone at the table wanted a timer in place, is it even necessary? Isn’t everyone already motivated? Or was it a majority vote and there’s a single person you’re not having a very necessary conversation with? Beyond that, who was the one to suggest the timer in the first place?
You said they looked up fireball 6 times in a session. Maybe you were being hyperbolic, which would weaken your argument. If not, then they must use that spell a lot to need to look it up so much. And given it’s a simple spell, they must be double-checking the numbers, so they have something in mind for it.
Your biggest benefit to a timer, and your biggest flaw with a nudge, were both about being responsible for the game running smoothly. You’re the GM. That’s your responsibility. It’s everyone’s, but the GM is afforded greater power by their position, and with great power…
Yeah, that is a small detail. It’s very small. Insignificant, even.
You said the timer fixed the problem. I corrected you, pointing out the timer only prompted the actual fix for the problem, and that’s not guaranteed for every table. You called me a snob. I don’t feel that upset about it.
I don’t always run a timer, but it is a tool in my box.
Mostly it comes out when I feel like the players are spinning their wheels. Like, they know they need to get into the server room on the 10th floor. There’s a front door with security, a back door with an alarm, etc. The players are just going round and round with ideas but not doing anything.
I’ll say “I’m starting a five minute timer. If it hits zero, something interesting will happen”.
If it hits zero and they’re still stuck, then as foretold something interesting happens. A rival group rolls up and firebombs the entrance before heading inside. A security drone spots them and is calling the cops. Whatever. Something that forces them to act.
In combat rounds I sometimes do the same, but only if it feels like they’re not making progress. Maybe it’s a little rude sometimes, but I value keeping the scene moving forward. I don’t want to keep spending three minutes on “should I move? How far can I move again? Is there a range penalty? What if I use a spell first can I still shoot?” stuff. Especially if it’s rules minutia they should already know.
The amount of times I had to remind an old group’s bard that yes, in DND 5e you can move AND take an action was too high.
I might inject, that this is a very drastic measure that some groups will find to be annoying. As long as they are actually debating constructively, then the example above isn’t even needed. If, as the comment says, the debate is going in circles, some groups can be brought back on track by simply telling them: “So guys… What are you going to do? Because you’ve been doing the same back and forth for half an hour now?”
Not saying that you should not use the above method. Just saying that some players will find that to be an “extreme” solution. Instead, simply reminding them, that they should probably get to a result within the next five minutes can do.
A turn timer?? I’m out.
It’s necessary when someone is taking 8+ minutes to take their turn. Things that person does every time they’re in combat, but it still takes them 8 minutes
Yeah I’m new and this would put me off, honestly.
Turn timers are not for every situation. They use turn timers to turn up the heat on a scenario. Like a bank heist or a time bomb.
this is a funny situation I have with this sub. I tend to subscribe to rpg stuff but I tend to block meme stuff. they like nullify each other. I can’t imagine a dm using a timer although with some groups I would have rather liked it if it was generous enough.
Me, who picks spells that have their down sides listed at the end and use the time to my advantage.
5d6 damage.
Is there a save? *Beep* times up, take the damage please.
Even at a paid table, an actual timer would be the last resort.
I get that some players just drag ass, and it can be annoying. But damn, you gotta have a degree of freedom to really think. If one player is dragging ass often enough to be a problem for the table, it’s talk time as a first option.
Before a timer, I would even insist on a different character that plays in a more simple way.
