Genuinely, though. You describe democratic worker councils, large public programs, criticize Capitalism, even point out Imperialism, and everyone agrees with you and what you want, as long as you don’t call yourself a Marxist.
I see this a ton on Lemmy, if I describe what I want and how I want to get there, very few people openly disagree unless I add that this is Marxism. So, I’ve stopped trying to hide that these ideas are Marxist and instead focus on correcting misconceptions about Marxism, like thinking Communism would have no government because Marx used the word “stateless” when describing it, not realizing he meant things like Private Property Rights and other statist means of upholding Capitalism. Marx wasn’t an Anarchist nor did he want Anarchism.
Indeed, as soon as you mention Marxism then the whole conversation becomes about that. Simply discussing the concepts with people without using trigger words tends to be a lot more productive. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter what people want to call it, as long as they can understand what course of action is desirable.
I do think it’s useful to dispel the veil, though. People simply agreeing with concepts doesn’t mean they will pursue action, it’s important that people actually understand Marxism, at least in my opinion. Agitprop is good.
We shouldn’t fall into a trap of defining what’s extreme as a deviation from the mainstream liberal bias in the west. In my view the idea that a minority of people should own the means of production and dictate the economic reality for the working majority is what’s extreme. It is true, that Marxists advocate for extreme measures for overthrowing an extreme system though.
I generally agree, however whether something is reasonable or just has little to do with deviation from the norm. It’s linguistic gymnastics, really. Marxism is extreme in the sense that it is a firmly Leftist position in a world dominated by Capital, but is perfectly reasonable at the same time.
I dunno, more of a monologue than a response, but I hope it cleared up my intent.
For sure, I do think this is worth pushing back on though. If we agree that the world capitalism built is itself extreme then, a firmly Leftist ideology is perhaps something we should be striving for to get away from the state we currently find ourselves in.
Would you care to elaborate on what aspects of these beliefs you find to be extreme. Is it the idea that workers should own the fruits of their labor, or perhaps the idea that the purpose of work should be for common benefit?
The problem is, Marxism was created over 100 years ago. I bet Karl Marx wouldn’t agree to his own theorem for the world we live actually. It needs upgrades, and an other name and shouldn’t be set in comparison with the systems which tried to be marxism / communism.
Smaller steps would be a good start, why not take a closer look at Portugal? A left government recreate the whole state in just a few years and save the country from being bankrupt. This wasn’t Marxism, but it was a left wing party with really good ideas.
Describe “Marx’s theorem” without paraphrasing wikipedia. This is nonsensical and as an adult you’re supposed to read about the things you choose to talk about. Linnaeus lived three centuries ago, but would you throw out taxonomy? Is the scientific method outdated because Francis Bacon wouldn’t know a thing about modern science? People build on the epistomological and ontological frameworks to make a living tradition.
The problem is, Marxism was created over 100 years ago. I bet Karl Marx wouldn’t agree to his own theorem for the world we live actually. It needs upgrades, and an other name and shouldn’t be set in comparison with the systems which tried to be marxism / communism.
On what grounds do you think he wouldn’t agree? Marxists since Marx have expanded on his ideas, like analysis of Imperialism, but Marxism is stronger than ever and consistently proved correct.
Smaller steps would be a good start, why not take a closer look at Portugal? A left government recreate the whole state in just a few years and save the country from being bankrupt. This wasn’t Marxism, but it was a left wing party with really good ideas.
Well, the general form of Marxist ideology in the population is not so much. But some elements of this ideology are so strong that the Republican Party uses this model of discourse for its voters.
Have I finally met that unicorn of perfect ignorance for whom the “Trump Is a Leninist” thinkpieces were written for? I’m just dying to know what part of Marx is used by Republicans!
I called it! Though I suppose it was plain enough by the time I came across it.
Faux-populist rhetoric is not a Marx thing and Magats are absolutely not opposed to big business. It’s like Trump’s only thing that he’s a billionaire due to real estate and other related fields.
Marxism is a living, constantly evolving science, so it very much adapts with the times.
It’s best to think of Marx and Engels as the Newton of political science and sociology… did they get everything right, and should we treat their words as gospel? Of course not, but their central tenets and ideas stand, and they built a solid foundation for others to build on.
We can recommend a lot of works on how marxism has evolved as a science, and how modern marxists view class struggle in the 21st century.
yeah thats why we read the works of other theorists that have lived since him and have taken his ideas an updated them and applied them to new circumstances at every moment since he wrote his books, for fucks sakes most communist dont even call themselves Marxists most of us call ourselves Marxists Leninist. Also if u actually read anything Marks wrote u would realize that while specifics are almost all outdated the ideas themselves and methods of analyzing and understanding things hold up just fine.
An ideology has to evolve over time in order to remain relevant to the generations that come and go from time to time. If you don’t do that, you will stagnate with a small group of people.
To gather more people, you have to find a common ground of the groups that are marginalized from society at that time, and you have to lead them to achieve that goal.
The word ‘Marxism’ means five different things in five different fields. You’ll need to be clearer about what exactly you feel should change.
From what I understand, the core ideas of Marxism - the ones about epistemiology, metaphysics, sociology and history - are more or less universally accepted in those fields (to the point that a student of, say, history may learn Marx’s theories as revealed truth, without even questioning them). His writings on economics are controversial, but again the core of it has remained largely unchanged.
Also, Marx thought of sociology, economics and so on as sciences, meaning that a theory is either right or wrong (or partially right). How many people believe in them has no effect on their truth value. So I don’t get what you mean by an ‘ideology that is friendly to a large part of the population or marginalized groups’.
Genuinely, though. You describe democratic worker councils, large public programs, criticize Capitalism, even point out Imperialism, and everyone agrees with you and what you want, as long as you don’t call yourself a Marxist.
I see this a ton on Lemmy, if I describe what I want and how I want to get there, very few people openly disagree unless I add that this is Marxism. So, I’ve stopped trying to hide that these ideas are Marxist and instead focus on correcting misconceptions about Marxism, like thinking Communism would have no government because Marx used the word “stateless” when describing it, not realizing he meant things like Private Property Rights and other statist means of upholding Capitalism. Marx wasn’t an Anarchist nor did he want Anarchism.
Indeed, as soon as you mention Marxism then the whole conversation becomes about that. Simply discussing the concepts with people without using trigger words tends to be a lot more productive. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter what people want to call it, as long as they can understand what course of action is desirable.
I do think it’s useful to dispel the veil, though. People simply agreeing with concepts doesn’t mean they will pursue action, it’s important that people actually understand Marxism, at least in my opinion. Agitprop is good.
For sure, I agree that chipping away at the propaganda has its own value, hence the meme. :)
mild the last of us tv season 1 spoilers
People conflate Marxism with extreme left beliefs, most people don’t even actually know what Marxism is
I mean, Marxism is extreme left belief.
We shouldn’t fall into a trap of defining what’s extreme as a deviation from the mainstream liberal bias in the west. In my view the idea that a minority of people should own the means of production and dictate the economic reality for the working majority is what’s extreme. It is true, that Marxists advocate for extreme measures for overthrowing an extreme system though.
I generally agree, however whether something is reasonable or just has little to do with deviation from the norm. It’s linguistic gymnastics, really. Marxism is extreme in the sense that it is a firmly Leftist position in a world dominated by Capital, but is perfectly reasonable at the same time.
I dunno, more of a monologue than a response, but I hope it cleared up my intent.
For sure, I do think this is worth pushing back on though. If we agree that the world capitalism built is itself extreme then, a firmly Leftist ideology is perhaps something we should be striving for to get away from the state we currently find ourselves in.
Would you care to elaborate on what aspects of these beliefs you find to be extreme. Is it the idea that workers should own the fruits of their labor, or perhaps the idea that the purpose of work should be for common benefit?
I’m not saying I find them extreme, I’m saying they’re not extreme but people hear the word and immediately think far left extremism
But what is far left extremism exactly, how is it even defined. The typical definition seems to be anything that deviates too far from the status quo.
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The problem is, Marxism was created over 100 years ago. I bet Karl Marx wouldn’t agree to his own theorem for the world we live actually. It needs upgrades, and an other name and shouldn’t be set in comparison with the systems which tried to be marxism / communism.
Smaller steps would be a good start, why not take a closer look at Portugal? A left government recreate the whole state in just a few years and save the country from being bankrupt. This wasn’t Marxism, but it was a left wing party with really good ideas.
You haven’t seriously engaged with Marx if you think the stuff he wrote isn’t still relevant.
Not meant as a diss, but please actually engage with his body of work before making this criticism.
Describe “Marx’s theorem” without paraphrasing wikipedia. This is nonsensical and as an adult you’re supposed to read about the things you choose to talk about. Linnaeus lived three centuries ago, but would you throw out taxonomy? Is the scientific method outdated because Francis Bacon wouldn’t know a thing about modern science? People build on the epistomological and ontological frameworks to make a living tradition.
On what grounds do you think he wouldn’t agree? Marxists since Marx have expanded on his ideas, like analysis of Imperialism, but Marxism is stronger than ever and consistently proved correct.
I don’t see what this has to do with Marxism.
Well, the general form of Marxist ideology in the population is not so much. But some elements of this ideology are so strong that the Republican Party uses this model of discourse for its voters.
What on Earth are you on about?
Have I finally met that unicorn of perfect ignorance for whom the “Trump Is a Leninist” thinkpieces were written for? I’m just dying to know what part of Marx is used by Republicans!
This article explains it better, although it is from 2017. Link
And the MAGAs are against big business, just like some of the Democrats.
Lmao. That’s why they stan a billionaire and Peter Thiel vice that fucks couched
I called it! Though I suppose it was plain enough by the time I came across it.
Faux-populist rhetoric is not a Marx thing and Magats are absolutely not opposed to big business. It’s like Trump’s only thing that he’s a billionaire due to real estate and other related fields.
I had a premonition that you will one day drown taking a bath because you’re too stupid to know which way is up.
Marxism is a living, constantly evolving science, so it very much adapts with the times.
It’s best to think of Marx and Engels as the Newton of political science and sociology… did they get everything right, and should we treat their words as gospel? Of course not, but their central tenets and ideas stand, and they built a solid foundation for others to build on.
We can recommend a lot of works on how marxism has evolved as a science, and how modern marxists view class struggle in the 21st century.
yeah thats why we read the works of other theorists that have lived since him and have taken his ideas an updated them and applied them to new circumstances at every moment since he wrote his books, for fucks sakes most communist dont even call themselves Marxists most of us call ourselves Marxists Leninist. Also if u actually read anything Marks wrote u would realize that while specifics are almost all outdated the ideas themselves and methods of analyzing and understanding things hold up just fine.
What in Marxism do you think needs upgrades?
An ideology has to evolve over time in order to remain relevant to the generations that come and go from time to time. If you don’t do that, you will stagnate with a small group of people.
To gather more people, you have to find a common ground of the groups that are marginalized from society at that time, and you have to lead them to achieve that goal.
What in Marxism needs to be upgraded, specifically?
They should have a Marxist ideology that is friendly to a large part of the population or marginalized groups in order to achieve relevance.
Adapt new technologies to their ideology and not come into conflict.
Such as?
The word ‘Marxism’ means five different things in five different fields. You’ll need to be clearer about what exactly you feel should change.
From what I understand, the core ideas of Marxism - the ones about epistemiology, metaphysics, sociology and history - are more or less universally accepted in those fields (to the point that a student of, say, history may learn Marx’s theories as revealed truth, without even questioning them). His writings on economics are controversial, but again the core of it has remained largely unchanged.
Also, Marx thought of sociology, economics and so on as sciences, meaning that a theory is either right or wrong (or partially right). How many people believe in them has no effect on their truth value. So I don’t get what you mean by an ‘ideology that is friendly to a large part of the population or marginalized groups’.