I often daydream about how society would be if we were not forced by society to pigeon hole ourselves into a specialized career for maximizing the profits of capitalists, and sell most of our time for it.
The idea of creating an entire identity for you around your “career” and only specializing in one thing would be ridiculous in another universe. Humans have so much natural potential for breadth, but that is just not compatible with capitalism.
This is evident with how most people develop “hobbies” outside of work, like wood working, gardening, electronics, music, etc. This idea of separating “hobbies” and the thing we do most of our lives (work) is ridiculous.
Here’s how my world could be different if I owned my time and dedicated it to the benefit of my own and my community instead of capitalists:
- more reading, learning and excusing knowledge with others.
- learn more handy work, like plumbing and wood working. I love customizing my own home!
- more gardening
- participate in the transportation system (picking up shifts to drive a bus for example)
- become a tour guide for my city
- cook and bake for my neighbors
- academic research
- open source software (and non-software) contributions
- pick up shifts at a café and make coffee, tea and smoothies for people
- pick up shifts to clean up public spaces, such as parks or my own neighborhood
- participate in more than one “professions”. I studied one type of engineering but work in a completely different engineering. This already proves I can do both, so why not do both and others?
Humans do not like the same thing over and over every day. It’s unnatural. But somehow we revolve our whole livelihood around if.
Let’s not be confused here. Specialization is what allows for free time. If everyone has to farm and hunt, that’s all you’d do. Specialization is a good thing for humanity and diverse institutions and industries to arise.
Yeah, OPs got the spirit but misses the point. We are being pressured to sell our time at a minimum of 40 hours every week. It’s thanks to specialization (and the technology that developed from it) that this quantity of of time is grossly over-allocated. Trade and travel allowed people to create better products in less time, so people were no longer very literally working to live, day-in, day-out. Unfortunately wages are kept low, wealth is kept centralized and culture continues to place value on excess so that we’re continually convinced that we “have” to work as many hours as we can find.
I don’t understand what you think I missed. When I said “specialization”, I meant the idea of just doing one thing and one thing only as a “career”. This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t specialize or that people won’t. But if I specialize in construction labor, with the extra time awarded to me I could also participate in design if I wanted.
actually, hunter-gatherer communities ‘work’ significantly less time than we do in our corporate jobs. farming is a different story: here’s one study: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/05/190520115646.htm
heres what wikipedia has to say:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_of_labour
historically it seems to have been beneficial… and led us to where we are currently.Yes, but if we only have to work on our specializations for 16 hours a week each instead of 40+, we would have a lot more time for other good stuff, whether it’s personal development, supporting other specialists, or just hanging out.
i’ve worked for 20h/w and 40h/w. i think 30/32 is a good balance
People are entitled to their preferences. They should also be entitled to overtime after some amount of hours per week that’s lower than forty, I think whatever it takes to bring the rate of unemployment to practically zero.
Typically when unemployment is around 4 percent, that is everyone working that wants to work. The 4 percent is people between jobs and people that are kind of looking for work but not in a rush to work. It difficult to be under that number.
In other words we are often at a point where unemployment is at zero. 4 percent being zero.
I understand and kind of agree with the idea that there is some small amount of unemployment that is practically unavoidable, however, I’m not sure that 4% is it. Per the latest US employment report, we’re at 3.8%. So, it seems like we should set the limbo bar lower than 4%.
That report also breaks down the unemployment rate by demographic and it seems to vary significantly between groups. To say that we are at full employment when blacks and hispanics have about 2% greater unemployment than whites and asians seems incorrect. The minimum practical unemployment rate for all of these groups should be the same. So, if we’re going to adjust OT in order to help achieve full employment, we should be looking at the unemployment rate for the most unemployed race/gender group.
There are also of course problems with how unemployment is measured and calculated, but I suppose that’s a little besides the point.
Regionally there will always be variances. Take Chicago and the loss of the auto industry. It took 25 (???) years for that to clean out. There was nothing to replace it rapidly so either people needed to move or they waited it out till new business evolved. Areas like that will skew the average higher. Maybe you could get an extra percentage nationally but I would say it is pretty close to zero at the moment.
Not everyone has to farm and hunt. It was more than 200,000 years ago that humanity figured out how not to get all of us to farm and hunt, way before capitalism ever was a thing.
Speicalization in the context I used does not mean “be an expert at a thing”. It means “Spend most of your time doing just that one thing”. I can see why you were confused, I think my use of “pigeon-holed” was probably better than specializetion.
But the same result would occur in socialism. Even communism. I don’t know what you expect to happen in any societal economic structure that would suddenly give you the freedom to do whatever you want whenever you want. Jobs existed the same way all the way back then as they do now. And that was the birth of capitalism, not before it. Most didn’t own their land. It belonged to a king or emperor. Sure there are exceptions and caveats, but to say capitalism didn’t exist back then isn’t accurate. Capitalism isn’t bad. It’s how it’s implemented that makes it awful. I think we need to migrate to socialism via capitalism. But it requires winning of the minds of the populace and that won’t happen until folks have an accurate understanding of both capitalism and whatever system you want them to transition to. I don’t even know what system you’re supporting with your question. It sounds like you’re trying to describe some sort of star trek utopia that supposedly is advanced beyond economic systems (yet how many episodes revolved around trade deals between planets and races… but I digress).
Jobs existed the same way all the way back then as they do now.
Are you arguing that ancient societies had “jobs”, and in the same way that we do nowadays? I don’t intend to be rude (and sorry if I come off that way), but a simple Google search will tell you that’s false, but I’d be glad to cite you exact resources as well.
And that was the birth of capitalism
While the exact beginning of capitalism may be a subject of a little debate, no expert on the matter believes it goes that far back. Again, simple Google search reveals it, and I’ll be glad to cite you resources if you want.
Most didn’t own their land. It belonged to a king or emperor.
This wasn’t always true. There was a time that preceded class society. And not all class society is capitalism.
but to say capitalism didn’t exist back then isn’t accurate.
It is the scientific consensus that it did not.
I think we need to migrate to socialism via capitalism
Not sure what you mean here. Can you please elaborate?
whatever system you want them to transition to
It is simple. Instead of orienting society around profits and capital, we orient it around bettering the human condition. Instead of working our days to generate more profit for capitalists in exchange for money to buy necessities, we work to serve our interests and our own communities. So much wasted labor is suddenly removed.
Money was invented before written history began.[1][2] Consequently, any story of how money first developed is mostly based on conjecture and logical inference.
We don’t actually know when money started so it’s hard to say.
But even before money the person with more stuff could acquire more stuff through barter. Even if they weren’t using money it’s still basically capitalism.
Yes we do, money started around temple societies in the fertile crescent to control people and keep them centrally located.
Also, there is no known historical example of a purely barter economy. What’s known now is everything tended to work on an informal gift/reputation economy.
Until money came along, was typically forced upon people, and then if the money system failed, people fell back to a barter system. Neither money or barter are natural for the vast majority of human time and society
Barter being the predecessor of money is actually false, and has never been supported with sufficient evidence.
From what anthropology tells us, money was introduced by force, not by a natural tendency for humans to barter, and wanting a better way to do it.
And no, that isn’t “basically capitalism”. No “capital” involved here in the sense of capitalism.
Humans do not like the same thing over and over every day.
Speak for yourself, I like routine and being rewarded for working hard.
Do you really get rewarded for working hard? Every time I’ve gone above and beyond for my job it becomes and expectation with no increase in pay. There is no reward for us “no skill” jobs that somehow are the very foundation of this god forsaken societal system we uphold.
I’ve left jobs when I don’t get rewarded for hard work. Thankfully we live in a free market that allows me to also freely choose my employer and occupation.
I would, in no certain order:
- Work at a coffee shop part time making coffee for people. Preferably a locally owned shop, but it wouldn’t matter too much if not.
- Work as a bartender similarly as above
- Potentially garden if I have the time and interest for it
- Create more YouTube videos
- Write, record, and release more music
- Learn to paint
- Get a film camera and take photos with it
- Contribute to FLOSS projects
- Finally make that D&D table that doubles as a dining table that I’ve been wanting to make for a few months now
- Actually follow through on learning my several languages I’m working on learning
- Become an interpreter (probably in ASL)
- Develop video games
- Create more art in general
- Do research on how art and society mingle together and interact
I’d still be a programmer. I’d work on open source projects 100% of the time. It’s something I love to do.
Man’s got to eat though. I still work in an area that makes the world slightly less shitty though, so it’s not all bad.
I run a goth night once every other month.
I visit friends quite often whenever I want to.
I get up and start my day when I feel like it.
I play with code and build web toys.
I’m a freelance IT guy. I could, if I wanted to, earn a lot more than I do, but my time is worth more than money. It is possible to do, even in this world where everyone is told that you need a ‘career’ and to work for a company, although a lot more work is needed to freeing other careers from the obligation of the grind.
Don’t give up hope, unionise, demand respect,buy a guillotine,and keep an eye out for a way to get what you need and to contribute to society or your community without signing your life away.(Yes, some people will never get the opportunity. And that, frankly, pisses me off no end. But don’t lose hope until you’re dead.)
Your a freelance IT guy and you are suggesting to unionize? Your the guy companies use when they don’t want unions.
I don’t work for big companies, I support small businesses where a full-time IT guy doesn’t make sense, and old people who are struggling to get their internet working because their internet explorer icon disappeared. Additionally, if I was contacted by a company to cover them whilst their employees are striking, I’d turn them down.
So your suggesting the small companies don’t unionize as you got them?
Honestly your stance is a bit disingenuous. Unions do not like your model as you take away work that could be done under a union.
It’s clear you don’t understand my business. A kebab house does not hire a full time IT guy, they hire someone like me when needed. Similarly, they don’t hire a full-time plumber for their toilets, a full-time builder to repair broken tiles, or a full time electrician to repair their electronics.
As for unionising, I’d support such businesses unionising, and would not help management stop them, even if they are my clients.
Some perspective for you, because you’re looking for an enemy here: Just because I got sick of working under middle management doesn’t mean I don’t need to be able to afford food and rent. Under the current state of affairs, you have to work for someone, or you have to work for yourself. The only alternative is social support systems which differ nation to nation. If looking at the big CEOs, yeah, you’re looking at arsewipes. No way they got there without stepping on people. But the farther down you go, the more normal people you meet. Owning or running a business is not the same as taking advantage of people, and being self-employed is not the same as union busting.
I am not your enemy here, but I’m also not going to respond to you anymore. I wish you well, but this is not worth my time.
Not suggesting you are my enemy but there are union IT shops that your model would certainly take work away.
I get three days off a week and just got off of a 3 week long vacation and I slept a bunch lol. Played videogames. If I could never work again I’d just relax and enjoy food and entertainment.
What would allow that isn’t communism, but a “post-scarcity” society, much like Star Trek TNG. A lot of what we take for granted can only happen thanks to the commercial logistics of fucktons of materials going around.
I’d devote more time into programming, performance optimization, processor architecture and computer graphics. These things are still “magic” to me and there aren’t many resources, especially on the “bare metal” graphics part of most recent parts. Once I figured it out enough to feel confident in passing that knowledge around, I would do that in english and portuguese
One thing that I’m already doing thanks to my job giving me a decent salary for only 20h of work is my own game project. Something that I’ll probably end up selling, but I’ll probably be the first to release a pirate/free version of it, too.
Yeah it’s easy to do whatever you want as a job when matter/antimatter reactors give unlimited energy and replicators can use that limitless energy to create any object.
I would write and draw more. There’s so many stories I wanna make. I might even take up some other medium like animation or something physical like sculpture or architecture. It would be fun to design spaces that don’t need to have the soul sucked out of them to appear “mature” or “professional”
I feel like the fear of not making profits and not surviving pressures me into watering down everything I do so it’s appealing to someone else. That’s why art is strictly a hobby for me and not a career I wanna pursue
I would cut cars in half and weld them into the other halves of other cars
Lenght or width wise?
I would contribute to any activity that would ensure capitalism wouldn’t start existing.
It would be pretty difficult to bring back capitalism after its gone. It’s like someone trying to bring back feudalism today, beyond individual interactions.
I’d love to spend more time planting trees. I volunteer to do it occasionally on weekends but I really love the process of going from sprout to seedling to planted. I just wish I could do more of it.
my world could be different if I owned my time
Self ownership is the basis of capitalism and you’re already playing the game, you’re just playing it bad.
if you’re on hourly I want you to ask yourself if you would pay someone else what you earn at work to do whatever you just did in the last hour.
if not why not? did you explicitly set aside this time to be unproductive? do you think people doing better than you let themselves slide like that?Humans do not like the same thing over and over every day
Speak for yourself, I love having a routine and getting in the zone. Autonomy and Mastery are worth more to me than money.
What a nonsense reply. Describing any rest as “slipping”.
The number one thing, by FAR, that earns money under capitalism is investment. Not work, not skill, not merit. Just having money to invest and shave off your share of someone else’s work.
The “people doing better” actually rest far more than your average worker. They just have money, so they get to make more money even while they are “unproductive”.
Jesus Christ this post sucks
If only we had a voting system to express whether we thought a post meaningfully contributed or not!
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spoiler
sadfasfasdfsa
I’m sorry that a harmless question on askLemmy bothers you so much :(
luke’s poor feefees. :(
I would offer people money to work for me.
And then i would help them optimize their brainspace to be more efficient at helping me.
I would allow them to use my workshop to create things that benefit the community. Like tools and Labor.
I would keep watch over the water and electrical lines and repair and service them if needed.
I would train people to do that for me and pay them.In a society oriented to our own interest and the interests of our community, no one would do work for you for money, especially since money would cease to exist.
In a society like you described money would be created. First as bartering and then eventually a form of money will start to exist.
The anthropology on the origins of money have shown that this is false. Money was introduced by force, and barter only occured in societies that previously had money then lost it (so, money-oriented societies). It is a myth that money creates itself. I’d love to refer you to resources if you’re interested on reading further (I have to dig them up from my notes).
There would not even be a need to create money. If your needs are already met, why would you still engage in exchanging already-abundant resources? Why would I give up my carrots to get your apples, when I can just go and pick some apples from the apple storage or a grocery store?
Because i would take all the apples. And the carrots. And if you wanted some you would have to barter with me. If you didn’t, then you would not have all your needs met.
Because people are not intrinsic good.
If you fail to take that into account then your idea is flawed.You really think an entire society revolved around bettering the human condition wouldn’t have guard rails against some random self destructive idiot going rogue?
In general though, no one has the motive to do that (except a self destructive idiot, who we’d just put in rehab and hope they get better).
Also you probably lack the means to take all the apples. The world already produces more than double the amount we consume. I guarantee you have no capacity to take them all.
I’m sorry, I know you thought that was really smart of you, but it’s not a good look.
my neighborhood has multiples of me. we are now a group.
Yeah sure. We cannot take all the apples out of cincinatti. But i can take all the apples from my town. Especially if i convice other people that are powerhungry like me. Narcisism and sociopathy exist, never forget that.
And on what grounds would you put me in rehab? Because i did what makes me feel good?
I take care of all the stuff nobody wants to do.
I clean the drains, i upkeep all the things you use for leisure.
People are lazy and would rather barter with me than to overthrow me. If they did, someone would have to wade through the shit all day.Kings and Queens did not have a real reason why they should be in power. They created their own reasons and used all their ressources to keep everyone down.
You surely have the Hollywood infested brain lmao
And on what grounds would you put me in rehab?
What about having terroristic aspirations? LOL. Trust me, no society will ever depend on you. You’ll always remain disposable
Hey, I would like the reasources you mentioned if it’s not too much hassle for you.
Below I linked an article that cites a couple of sources on this matter.
For a more in-depth reading, I’d highly recommend “Debt: The first 5000 years” by David Graeber. He has a ton of sources cited there too.
Article (12ft.io link to avoid paywall):
Thanks a lot, comrade!
Happy to help!! And great to meet you :)
If that’s capitalist society didn’t exist you’d spend your time hunting, gathering, farming band generally ensuring you had food on the table. You wouldn’t have time or energy to do those other things you dream of. And nor would anyone else.
No, I’d spend my time doing more or less what I said in my original post. Humanity has long moved past the reliance on hunting-gathering 200,000 years ago during the agricultural revolution (hint: it was far before capitalism). Technology today allows us to produce all humanity’s needs with the fraction of the labor we do now, or the labor we did in the past. None of this would go away if society oriented itself around its own needs and wants instead of capital.
Counterpoint, capitalism has existed for only a few hundred years and yet hunter gatherer societies by and large faded out a few thousand years ago. I’m not saying there’s a magic bullet solution here and/or we should revert to feudalism. But you didn’t make the point you thought you were making.
