Curious what you all thought for what things like Lemmy, Revolt, Mastodon, PeerTube, Bluesky, Flashes, etc would need to be able to grow fast and well to get many users joining up
Because it’s high time everyone drops all the way less than ideal platforms/apps/websites/news sources
I’ll add on too:
Content creators that are engaging, clear, & entertaining explaining things with great videos showing Fediverse, etc stuff will help in various ways
More instances. Should make it super easy to roll your own. Lots of small instances just takes me back to 00s message boards, it was a good time.
I started on here almost 2 years ago and it has grown rapidly, I’m very impressed.
2 years ago, you could knock out all the content on here in a few minutes, now, there’s so much content and even stuff bleeding in from Mastadon at times.
Edit: make something good and people will come, Facebook, ig, snapchat, etc started off at 0 as well.
- don’t lose steam, use steam.
videogames are a critical part of life for many people. find ways to integrate with, interact with or somehow involve steam. like literal steam it is pervasive, rising and hot espite being as old as time itself. look at gaben. some joke that he is a god. ignore that silly crap and look at the decisions he makes for the company. he rarely makes bad moves.
- nay. aye.
ai is being forced violently down everyone’s throats. i didn’t sign up for this internet snuff film. it’s all over the news. websites have removed assistant popups offering help. gppt, guinea pig potty training.
- make time for time.
not the magazine, put down that spice. nothing needs to be spiced up. milhouse is not a meme. the streisand effect is temporary and ultimately works. let it grow naturally, if you force it, the masses will reject it, shit all over it then leave it for dead.
- an enema of my enemy is an anemone
people need a place to go. you have a place. people don’t like change. they move when their home dies. when it turns to shit. your enemy, whether by design or not, is reddit. reddit grew as digg died. let reddit die. a sea of people will steadily migrate over unless you supershittify faster and harder than them. look at a-a-ron’s [rip] early work with reddit and markup. keep. it. simple. keep it tight. don’t make it look like a sea cucumber with all the extra shit twiddling off.
- porn.
remember deviantart? remember tummbler? remember imgur? what do they have in common? they all got rid of porn. their slow decline began at that moment every time. porn is hard (i don’t mean like that), once a site’s ability to share porn goes down (not like that) it’s really hard (not like that) to get it back up (not like that). there are plenty of obvious risks. csam. trafficking. too much or too little goatse (it’s not that little baby, please).
in short, time (3) for hot (5), steamy (1) humans (2) giving enemas to sea anemone (4). or something like that (6-9)
EDIT: I notice that one of my words was redacted. I think that is an example of the slippery slope that is part of shittification. I understand why it was removed. Very well actually, despite my developmental disorder. That’s right, I am developmentally removed. It probably will automatically redact the word again in my previous sentence. I get it, the word itself has shifted in meaning due to it being used in a derogatory manner excessively.
I am not trying to provoke any specific reaction by mentioning it and reusing it. I do not want to offend anyone with the word or any words.
Same as certain other words, while offensive to some, to the point of it needing redacted, others whom the word is used offensively towards, may some day choose to take it on as a title proudly. The meaning of words can shift and changes over time. I recall a time when the word “queer” was bad. I wonder if that will be redacted here too. People got in trouble for saying it when I was younger, regardless of their intent. It had the same weight of offensiveness as fuck, shit, piss and damn. It shifted again though and now is part of the LGBTQ+ abbreviation and to my knowledge, is not considered offensive anymore, unless used specifically as such.
The part that concerns me however, is the automatic redaction. That sort of automation is potentially a weapon that can be abused. It is blacklisting speech without regard to intent. No, I don’t want people spammming racial epithets or derogatory language constantly, something I’ve had the displeasure of handling in the past, elsewhere, as a moderator in a group videochatting website and in subreddits i modded (including the infamous spacedicks).
I believe that any kind of censorship like that should be handled on a case by case basis. Automatically doing it will alienate people, some who are unaware of the indecency of the word and some using it as it was initially intended, all to stop the bad actors hoping to gain a reaction. Automatic removal is caving and letting the bad actors win. It is letting them dictate which words can be used and which are to be removed. What happens when the word “holocaust” becomes a slur? What happens when it is decided that the word “removed” becomes offensive?
I’m not asking for any changes, I just felt the need to make my case and point, as I have done numerous times on many platforms. I want to issue this warning, that censorship and especially automatic censorship, is very rarely the right way to do things. I understand why. I also know it creates a sort of ethical debt that stifles the wrong people eventually, while the bad actors move on to their next target. So it goes…
EDIT: I notice that one of my words was redacted. I think that is an example of the slippery slope that is part of shittification. I understand why it was removed. Very well actually, despite my developmental disorder. That’s right, I am developmentally removed. It probably will automatically redact the word again in my previous sentence. I get it, the word itself has shifted in meaning due to it being used in a derogatory manner excessivel
Lemmy.ml has a word filter in place. Feel free to join another instance to avoid it
Poetry. I’m glad my feed has gone from mostly porn to not so much porn, and more seemingly real content.
As the growth of Bluesky showed, most users do not care about decentralization as much as they care about usability. In his talk at ATmosphereConf last month, Paul Frazee explained that this is why his team built ATProto instead of using ActivityPub.
What I’d like to see is someone build an ATProto forum like Lemmy, and for it to be fully federated with Lemmy using Bridgy Fed.
EDIT: I know about frontpage.fyi. It does not have communities/subforums, so I would consider it more of a Hacker News replacement.
You could make a better UX on ActivityPub without inventing a new, incompatible protocol that has a centralization problem. Email is decentralized just fine. They could have also made proposals to ActivityPub or extending it like most applications do. It is just venture capital bullshit cloning Tvitter which makes it more familiar rather than an objectively easier UX.
As the growth of Bluesky showed
If you’ve got marketing money, even Chinese spyware apps make it to the top. see Tiktok. So, growth is not always a good metric for what works.
Bluesky is just a pseudo decentralization platform that’s built as a controlled opposition and will make the same moves as twitter when it reaches critical mass. It’s got money to market itself as “different” and shareholders will soon want return of investment and there’s much to be made off of being a government surveillance apparatus.
Nothing should be made off of ATProto.
Not only do I not care about the decentralization, I dislike it. When instances started banning each other last year I stopped using lemmy and I only come back occasionally.
If you dislike decentralization, then that’s like being on an instance that’s banned every other instance.
Do you mean that you dislike defederation?
Isn’t that what https://frontpage.fyi/ is?
It’s not ready for prime time. It’s also not bridged.
Also, Lemmy is not bridged because Bridgy Fed requires users to opt-in by following a certain account, and we can’t do that on Lemmy.
It all needs to get a lot less complex and confusing. I know the complexity is a byproduct of the defederated nature of the whole thing, but it’s also the primary thing limiting growth. The fediverse is never going to grow to anything other than a tiny niche if it isn’t immediately understandable to people who have 0 background in tech.
The fediverse is never going to grow to anything other than a tiny niche if it isn’t immediately understandable to people who have 0 background in tech.
What is Lemmy in one sentence?
Lemmy is an alternative to Reddit, you can visit https://phtn.app/ to have a look at the content, and install an app using https://vger.app/settings/install.
https://old.reddit.com/r/BuyFromEU/comments/1j0xkqa/lemmy_as_an_alternative_to_reddit_using/
i think normies can understand federation no problem if they really wanted, just like they did with email.
Best way to explain is probably not explain at all in the beginning and let them create an account in a well federated instance. That will not make them confused and learn by using it.
i think some explanation is a good idea.
Three big issues.
Usability: A lot of these alternative platforms are incredibly confusing for people who aren’t tech-savvy. You can’t expect most folks to really understand the idea of Lemmy instances for example. Bsky kind of hit the sweetspot of being super easy to use, offers not just familiar features but better features than its competitor (blocklists), while also being an open protocol. Though they’re FAR from perfect (their team is extremely questionable to say the least), and it doesn’t seem like the protocol itself is gaining traction.
Population: This is a self-defeating prophecy. We saw it with twitter to bluesky, and we’re JUST starting to see it with reddit to lemmy. The vast majority of people just won’t shift to platforms where the people they want to interact with aren’t present. They won’t move until they feel like they absolutely have to. People put off moving from the Nazi bar formerly known as twitter for literally a year - the site’s been nothing but a cesspool for ages now, but the vast majority of users couldn’t be bothered to moved to an alternative site until bsky got lucky. Hell, even now, so many people still stick to it because they’re afraid of losing engagement or some bullshit.
Algorithms: I HATE algorithmic feed bullshit, give me chronological 100% of the time, but frankly the vast majority of people have been spoonfed algorithmic feeds for at least a decade now. Going back to bluesky as an example (since it’s probably the most successful example of an alternative platform at the moment), it prioritizes the chronological feed, sure, but I’m actually amazed (and appalled) at how many people apparently only use the Discover tab. It’s a necessary evil until we can wean the general populace off of their instant gratification and endless scrolls.
100% usability and algorithm. I still visit Reddit because r/all is perfectly entertaining rage bait.
Lemmy is fine usability-wise, but we’re short engaging content.
Mastodon’s lack of algorithm makes it a really hard long-term sell.
You can’t expect most folks to really understand the idea of Lemmy instances for example.
They don’t need to. Nowadays the recommendation to promote Lemmy is
What is Lemmy in one sentence?
Lemmy is an alternative to Reddit, you can visit https://phtn.app/ to have a look at the content, and install an app using https://vger.app/settings/install.
https://old.reddit.com/r/BuyFromEU/comments/1j0xkqa/lemmy_as_an_alternative_to_reddit_using/
Algorithms
https://quiblr.com/ can help with that
You vastly overestimating the average person’s willingness to learn new things
It’s not about learning, it’s inertia.
Bluesky is easier to use than Mastodon, but still doesn’t have the same level of popularity as Twitter. Sports and entertainment for instance, are still mostly happening on Twitter.
need to make enough noise that even with reddit trying to supress it and deleting removing and shadown banning people still learn of the alternative.
deleted by creator
I say let them stay blissfully ignorant. They have the right to that choice. It’s the above average people that matter. The ones still capable of critically thinking, that do not rely on ‘one-line zingers’ (i.e. 69, nice; that’s what she said; and my axe; etc) and inside jokes for dopamine hits. Quality > quantity.
“the above average” lmao You’re not special because you use the leftist app.
Corporate buy in, just look at bluesky. I don’t want lemmy to grow.
I want Lemmy to grow, without corporations’ grip, and without centralization.
Truth Social and Threads are just Mastodon instances, aren’t they?
Yeah and no one federates with them for a reason, despite the fact it would about 500x the userbase.
Is that true? I know threads can federate with activity pub but 1) does opt in federation imply it’s somehow different than other activity pub based apps and 2) it can federate with mastodon but it’s not based on mastodons itself? I’m asking
Truth social, if that’s true, I had no idea it was AP, but I really hope nobody ever federates with them.
I’m not entirely sure tbh
Word of mouth and time. Lots of it. All the ones that need you to be your own algorithm will take longer to gain acceptance with the general public. We’ll need a few more Muskerbergian s-storms to motivate people away from the silos as well.
I wonder how successful a crowd-funded fediverse marketing push would be. I really think that’s the main thing that pushed people to bsky over mastodon.
A huge number of Twitter->bsky converts were people happy to just stay in their bubble, until eventually enough of their bubble engaged with a bsky ad they were served somewhere.
A good chunk of crowd funded ads to push the benefits of mastodon, Lemmy, etc could be the lowest hanging fruit right now.
I don’t think there is a future without algorithms, but I do think it’s important to implement them in a way similar to how bsky did where they’re opt-in and configurable by individual users.
Lack of an algorithm makes finding new content much more difficult. And most people don’t want to spend time actively looking for stuff, they just want to log in, laugh at funny memes and look at pieces of art.
You’re probably right that we need something like that to appeal to the masses. Sadly.
I think the handcrafted feed will always reign supreme.
As someone who doesn’t know the first thing about bsky, IMO as long as they’re centralized and closed source, it’s not possible to call their algorithm opt-in, nor configurable. You simply can’t know how they’ve arrived at the content they are (or more importantly, are not) serving you.
But yes, I do think lemmy and ActivityPub services in general need to prioritize user control over custom “algorithms” for filtering and prioritizing content.
Yeah it def is opt in. The only two default feeds you get are literally an algo free timeline and discover timeline, it defaults to the algorithm free timeline iirc.
Sure, their discover tab is closed source algorithm but you don’t have to use it. In addition, you can create and import your own algorithms (which becomes necessary because you can’t follow hashtags, which is frustrating)
But how do you know the “algorithm free timeline” is algorithm free? Are they just in chronological order, only shows you direct follows, and never leaves anything out?
Yes.
Oh wow, that’s refreshing haha. Hope it can stay that way.
Time and contribution from users like me and you, probably more you because you’ve posted something!
Support the communities you enjoy, and report the trolls in the comments. Block people who are trying to cause trouble and encourage others to do the same.
Accessibility, as the easier it s with people with disabilities, it would be a lot easier for people who don’t have them, accessibility is incredibly powerful and extremely good for everyone
https://rblind.com/ implements specific themes
While nice to have and good for people who need it. I won’t think it would have an impact of very high statistical relevance in userbase growth.
As people with visual disabilities (the most common disability that needs adaptations for a social media service) is not a massive demographic group.
Userbase being more friendly towards different ideologies.
People don’t want to admit it. But this is a very toxic place for people who are not of a very specific ideology.
And when confronted about it the usual response is “I don’t want people thinking like that here” which is a rephrase of “I just want people like me here”. Which is ok, but inconsistent with a wish for growth as the idea of people turning your ideology because you think you are so convincing it’s a fantasy.
Platforms and protocols should be tools first and foremost, sure, but communities should never be tolerant of fascists and nazis. Any viable platform should have, at the absolute bare minimum, enforced rules against hate speech, which is something that’s not remotely enforced on any big platform today.
Letting the right run rampant is why social media is in the state its in today, and a shift to open platforms is our chance to take these spaces back and show the right that they’re not welcome in society as a whole.
I don’t mean fascist or nazis, obviously ban those. But, you know, the real ones. Not the “everyone who is slightly more right wing than myself is a nazi”. I’m not right wing but I do enjoy the company of normal right wingers. And here sometimes it gets a little boring knowing that for most things everyone has the same opinion on most issues.
I’ve felt more free to express my thinking here than I ever did elsewhere. Except for a tech focused one that I got dogpiled on by people arguing in bad faith about the crowdstrike fiasco.
Funny, to me it’s kind of the opposite - we need to give diversified environments where people can feel welcome, not trying to jam everyone into one big “community” which is anything but.
I think that’s what was great about the forum and personal website era. If you wanted a place where you can use edgy language and spend your time shitting on things, there’s a website you could go to. Unicorns and hopeposting are over here. Nerds and geeks are over there.
That doesn’t mean segregating and creating ideology bubbles. Everyone can visit and be part of any, and can stay well away from the ones you know you don’t like. Take /b/ for example: it is famous for having a certain demographic, and if you don’t want to see it, you simply don’t go there. It’s not in your face, they’re happy about not having “normies” there, you’re happy about not having them in your digital home, every one wins. And if you’re ever in a certain mood and would like to venture in the woods, it’s there.
The same set of rules can’t fit all the possible users, purposes, times, etc. And although I also subscribed to the thought bubble theory , the counterargument that it’s actually the opposite - the lack of “social glue” between participants in discussions, made a lot of sense to me.
Kurzgesagt - The Internet Is Worse Than Ever - Now What? (YT)
Also go forbid you have any criticism towards Linux.
The principles of operation of the fediverse are actually very aligned with the “small government, personal freedom, free speech” ethos that conservatives in the US claim to have.
The culture on most fedi spaces is hostile towards anything less than luxury gay space communism politically but it’s pretty easy to ignore because the power structure of the fediverse is ideal and makes it so you filter out the very worst of the tankies if you so choose.
Now if you are a fascist who is only concerned about dominating others opinions and rights, and only care about freeze peach and not freedom of association and expression I can see how you might find the fediverse objectionable.
The fedi needs more voices from all sides, it does not need fascists.
I agree. Straight up fascist out. Nobody need a fascist. But I do miss liberals (in the european sense) or conservatives /republicans (from US perspective).
It gives little more variety to a place.
For instance it would be nice to have people defending tariffs and getting some discussion on those, see different points of view and such. I like to be intellectually challenged, and it’s hard sometimes when I agree with most people here in most topics and in the ones I don’t agree people tends to be very hostile. I think that when most people think the same way that leads to some feral behavior to those who write any different opinion.
Money, donate money to the projects.