I don’t trust them considering their enthusiasm over it and the comments about Finnish history.

If, as it seems to emerge, they are “forced” to do it under legal advise, it is completely irrelevant that you (or anybody else for that matter) trust them or not.

About their “enthusiasm”, all I can see is that after the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Russia is not sees as that friendly and trustworthy anymore: they had a signed treaty with Ukraine to preserve Ukranian integrity in exchange of the nuclear weapons (from URSS), we see how much Russia valued their own word. I cannot blame someone from a country which share a border with Russia for not having simpaty for Russia.
True, someone innocent will pay, but it is not that different from having Russian scientist turned away from CERN or any other situation where there was a collaboration. It is sad but on the other hand it is a consequence.

Go read “Finnisu Civil War: History, Memory, Legacy” by Tepora and try to laugh at the comments about history. Impossible.

As you cannot laugh to any other memory of any other war.

True, but sometimes you have not any other choice.

It’s literally just speculation.

I agree.

Even if it were true, what the fuck does that have to do with the nationality of a few Linux contributors?

Probably nothing, I agree. But since there are sanctions against Russia I suppose they have not really any other choice.

Is that sad ? Yes, but it is life.

I suppose any law in any jurisdiction you want to use it, don’t you think ?

Guys, are you all really that young to not remember alla the fuss with crypto software ? Same thing here: you want to distrubute something in a country, you need to follow the country’s law, even if they are stupid.

“Compliance requirements”? The kernel’s american now?! WTF?

Nope, but it is not above the law.

Even Wikipedia, which is a shockingly bloodthirsty pro-NATO outlet, admits there is zero proof that a “Russian state actor” did this, there are just “western security experts” claiming it (as usual), and opinion is divided.

Well, I don’t think that a “[insert your preferred state] state actor” would ever coming out saying “yes, we tried to to it”.

Not to say that what Wikipedia say is false but on the other hand I am not sure how to check if it is true, in these cases.

Only real option is to crypt them before putting them on the VPS, but at this point a VPS is pretty useless.

It is not that simple.
For hardware attacks, older hardware are probably safe since the attacks are specifics to some newer features. I really doubt you can deliver a Spectre attack on anything up until the Pentium or even later.
On the software side, there could be some security bugs to which some older version could be vulnerable since there were not the vulnerable code at the time. Granted, there could be some security bugs that were not yet discovered in older codebase.

I put it to you that its not that they dont listen, its that they (despite having listened) disagree.

Fine. Then what the answer should be ? Silence or “Ok, listen, we don’t agree with you for [whatever reason]” ? Because if you don’t even answer after some time I ask you about a problem, I can rightfully think you are not listening.

I would also add that the UK labour party which is the closet thing we have to a left just won nearly the greatest landslide in their history, forcing the tories to the lowest seats since thd 1830s, specifically because the right lost the common people in the street.

What happened in UK (and what will happen) was clear from the moment Brexit passed, they are now paying the price of their choices. Note that it would be ended in the same way even with the left in power during and after Brexit.

How do we reconcile that with such a broad term as “the left wing” when talking about the ability to talk to the common person in the street?

Aside the fact that in other countries the right won (Italy) or that the left need to get everyone else together to not let the right win ?
Let face it: it is not that Meloni is doing everything right, but she is doing something for the people. In the recent years every laws that erored the worker’s right come from the left. Every laws that made the street less secure comes from the left. They were governing, it not seems to me they were listening to the common person, so yes. the left, at least here, has completely lost the ability to speak to the common person on the street because if they had listen they would not have done what they did.

Historically speaking the left was successful in the regions with many workers, in the countryside where the people were poorer and aimed to reduce the difference between them and the rich people living in the cities. Now the leftist live in the rich inner center of the cities, but the consequences of their actions are suffered from the suburbs. It is not a coincidence that much of the right voters are from the suburbs and the countryside while the left win in the big cities.
And that was because the left wing went speaking to the workers, to the peasants and generally to the poor. Now they talk about “green transition” and “trans rights” and “open borders” to people that have the problem of putting 3 meals a day on the table. All honorable thing to do btw.

Same in France: the left win, true, but if you followed the second round campaign, the mantra was “Le Pen should lose” and not “we must win”. To win they had to get everyone that was not from the “right” to have a chance. And yes, they won, but now ? It is to be see if they will start to try to understand why on the first round Le Pen won.

But you simply can’t counter that kind of weaponsied ignorance. The only way to is to sink as low as the people making it out to be due to their foreign-ness and not their being poor. But then you’re not the good guys anymore. So, its pointless. To me, I have to just accept that some people simply don’t even care what the truth is too. I mean, its what they see but they’re an adult and its a simple explanation.

The simple explanation is that one side allowed mass immigration without any idea about what to do after with all these people, thus creating the problem. And at some point people become tired of the problem and choose to vote for the side who pointed out the problem that already exist. But when people vote for the side that point out the problem they become fascist, because they cannot do wrong. (note that this time it is the left doing wrong, but that not means that the right cannot do wrong the same way).

Violent crime per capita has fallen across the world for centuries now. You think its bad now, you should have see the state of it 100 years ago or even 30. Thats why we have to go with data analysis. That doesn’t make it less intimidating or not a problem.

Man, I grow up in one of the worst part of my city. And I must tell you that until a 10 years ago, the situation only got worse and worse.
What we see is that crime are no more reported since people do not belive anymore in the justice system and there is a social stigma to report a crime if it is committed from an illegal immigrant. The most used excuse is “yeah, this illegal immigrant committed a crime, but also italians do it”. Fuck it. If this time is the foreigner, punish him. Then if the next time it is an Italian punish him in the same way.

But it also means that what the right is using for is a lie (blaming the economic situation on them).

Still the same problem. Just to say that the right lie do not solve the problem. And in the eyes of the ones who suffer the situation saying that the right lies simply means that you don’t care because you are saying that the problem do not exist.

But they were attacked all the time. They were excluded and cut off from the rest of the world too. There isn’t an instance of it failing of its own accord or unmolested. Would you accept me tripping you over and using that to claim you fail at walking? I don’t imagine you would.

Yes, they were attacked by the other socialist countries. In East Europe, nations that rebelled to the comunist were invaded by URSS, not USA.

And now their children and grandchildren will have less than them. Yes, I agree that socialist states are starved by the rest of the world.

Nope, socialist state starved themself.

Even more so, if its not socialism for everyone, its not socialism at all. None of those countries were socialist.

True. But the “None of those countries were socialist” is the same lame excuse people use when they see their system fail. If socialism is that better, it should had win irregarless of the interferences from USA (or anybody else) because it should had been superior. If something fail everytime it is tried, you cannot just say “yeah, it fail but it was not the true something”. I mean, you can a couple of time, but then no more, you become a joke.

If you genuinely beleive the USSR was socialist then you simply do not know what socialism is. I’m sorry to be blunt. I don’t know how old you are either but I’m old enough to know what that word means and that simply declaring ones self to be something doesn’t make someone that thing. If I paint something orange and declare it to be blue, its still orange.

That should be explained to some part of the actual left wing. And some other people tbh.
Anyway, I know what socialism is, what I don’t understand is why it should be a better system when history shown it is not true. I get that capitalism is not the best system in the world, it has its problems, but it seems better than the other we tried. Maybe we should aim to fix a somewhat good system instead of trying to make a bad system work.

The fact is that URSS was socialist but socialism suffer from the same end problem capitalism has: make few people rich and the other poor. Only difference is that under socialism it is the party to keep you down, under capitalism it is the rich. But under capitalism you can try to rise yourself without damaging everyone else, under socialism the only way to rise is to take down someone else.

They weren’t poor because they were socialist. They didn’t lose because they were socialist. They lost because the richest countries in the world they would lose. Firstly, they weren’t socialist. Secondly, they could have had any model ever and they would have lost. Capitalism has to claim victory for the things it isn’t responsible for and blame everything else for the things it is responsible for.

Don’t agree. They had the same opportunities at the beginning. The only difference I agree on is that after WWII URSS was destroyed and USA not. But also Europe was destroyed (man, in Milano we built a hill with bombing debris). But strangely enough every country under a socialist system lose and every country under a capitalist system win. Even is the two system tried to destroy earch other with any means. Look at North and South Korea for an actual example.
Now it can be that “it was not true socialism ™” but at that point the question is: ok, but it was even possible to implement true socialism ?

Heres a good thought experiment, try defending capitalism on its OWN merit. For that, a person can’t just claim others to be bad or worse of course. They also can’t claim the things that we have due to the passage of time, like medicine. Otherwise, you’re claiming that those things would never have happened if capitalism didn’t happen which would, on reflection, obviously be very silly.

Just one example: capitalism created a system that was able to sell wheat to the URSS even during the Cold War, a time when URSS had the same amount (if not even way more) of fields but somehow it was not able to produce enought wheat to feed its own people, while at the same time feeding its people and some more.

I feel like the other side would say that they have explained it to you and you rejected what that said and didn’t listen to them.

It is an option, of course. And sometimes it happen. But many more times did not. What it seems is that the left wing lost their ability to talk to the common people on the street, which historically was their voters. It is an open discussion here that the right basically win over the left taking over the arguments the left had until 5/10 years ago. As i said, it was a process.

Sure but its not their foreign-ness or their being from a different race that makes it happen. It’s general poverty. The way the right frames it is as if they wouldn’t care if the crimes were committed by italians or that italians would never do those things. Its simply that the poorest do those things. Those types happen to be the poorest. Not saying you, personally of course or that they actaully think that but thats how they frame it.

True, but they can easily frame this way because is what people see. In these areas people don’t see Italians, they see migrants because the migrants are there, not Italians. They see that are migrants that commit the petty crimes (I’ve seen more than one myself), not the Italians. True, maybe the right exaggerate this, but the people see this.

Honestly, if I see that in a certain zone (Central Station for example) the majority of the petty crimes I saw was committed by foreigners or people from a different races, my logical conclusion could be that these people are a problem, which in itself did not exclude the Italians, but simply start from the more visible aspect. I agree that it could be limitating of course.

Can you name an example of a socialist country that wasn’t attacked as much as possible, by the worlds only super power, specifically to ensure that socialism failed? Of course, you can’t. No one can. It would be like me tripping you up and then claiming you can walk properly.

All the comunist block before 1990.

Define you use of “better” here. Better in what way and for whom?

Better for the common people. Back at the time, my parents had it a lot better than the equivalent parents in a comunist/socialist state.

We can’t logically justify an economic model thats incompatible with not having to demand perpetual growth on a finite planet.

Agree on that.

No, one side wanted to fight. The others wanted to he left alone. The problem is, capitalism can’t tolerate any alternatives, as people will choose them over capitalism. Your other option HAS to be to starve on the street. Isnt it weird that no one sees a problem with those being your only two choices?

I distinctly remember that URSS tried pretty hard to destroy capitalism, like USA tried to destroy socialism. So URSS never wanted to quit the fight, they simply lost it.

Also, capitalism had over a century’s head start. I mean, its very true to capitalist form that you refuse to admit the outrageous advantage some groups start with, lest you accidentally acknowledge the fundamental problem with capitalism. However, let’s be fair here. I mean, even without that, the number of people living under each is vastly different.

As I said, I do not know how old are you, but I am old enough to remember that at the time the end result of the socialism was the exact same result of the capitalism: few ultrarich and powerfull people and a lot of poor people. Difference was that poor people from the west were anyway richer than the poor people in the comunist block, even if it started a century later. For some aspect it was way better: they arrive at the same result starting way later.

Obvious to who? To the person declaring that no one is listening to them?

To everyone with critical thinking. There is a part that ask about a problem and the other part never talk about the problem, it is open to be seen. And I have no problem to say that this is true to some extend both for the left and the right.

What would the difference between them not listening and you being ignored, as you were wrong look like?

There would not be any difference in the end result, which is why people feel they are ignored. Personally I can get that I can be wrong but if you don’t even try to explain to me the reason, the only conclusion I can make is that you are not listening to me.

The problems come when people such as yourself claim the problem to be due to football, despite being caused by cricket, and then when you try to explain to them the problem is actually cricket they tell you they don’t care about cricket. Therefor, the problem must be football.

I don’t think you are right. For example, if people claims that a part of the city is dangerous because all the (documented) petty crimes committed you cannot answer that the problem is that there are not enough bike paths in the city, people could rightfully say that they don’ t care about bike paths if they cannot walk on the street without being robbed.

Capitalism has failed the 99.9% every single time, yet you’re okay to stick with that. It failed the planet and our our grandchildren. Please don’t come to me with that.

Then I suppose that you can make an example of a actual nation where socialism (or any other system) works better.
And, btw, it is not only capitalism that supposedly failed the planet.

So, by their own admission, it doesn’t fail of its own accord, like capitalism.

It was a fight. The strongest won. If socialism was that better, it should have won.

Therein is the hypocrisy of the position. Its the lefts fault for not listening and for not being heard. I mean, could it possibly be because a large group of very stubborn and fact resistant people have declared their the lefts policies literally equal zero? Could it be that people refuse to listen, regardless of what the left says? No, that would be crazy talk. Its everyone else’s fault…

Well, for not listening is obvious, they are the ones not listening.
For not being heard is a little more complex. Maybe they are heard but simply their message is irrelevant to the listener, or maybe is wrong or targeted to the wrong audience. I mean, you can try to talk about cricket to me and I will not get your message since I don’t care about cricket. Is it your fault ? No, you cannot know everything I am interested in. But it become your fault if you don’t understand that I don’t care about cricket and you continue to talk only about it.

The same with the left, they talked about something, people said “look, all interesting but we have some more pressing day by day problems” and the left continued to talk about the same thing. Is it their fault ? Not at the beginning but it became their fault once they don’t understand that what they are talking about is not what the people need to talk about.

How do you get through to someone who has just declared not-zero to be zero and refuses to accept that what they made up is factually untrue? Is it my fault they do that?

A too simple example but I get the gist. Short answer: you cannot and it is not your fault.

But the problem with politics is not that until today people are leftist and from tomorrow they suddently become fascists, even if this is what some part of the left like to think, but that it is a process. And since it is a process it is a fault of each parties if they don’t understand it: it is a fault from the left if they don’t understand the process that drive their voters to vote for the right and likewise is a fault of the right if they don’t understand the process that drive their voters to vote for the left.

You don’t seem to like that argument when “the other ones are bad” comes from the left

It is more a “I don’t agree it is so bad that it need to be replaced”

and not trying anything else is the mentality of a depressive who views hope as a dangerous illusion.

I am afraid that trying something on a State level is way too dangerous, especially if the “something” already failed more then one time.

Youre missing the point. The point is, by their own policy, they admit that socialism doesn’t just fail of its own accord, as they claim it does. The point isn’t that an equivalent doesn’t exist.

I get the point: there are two opposing blocks and each one is actively trying to make the other fail. So ?

Why is the problem not that the message is from people who have been deliberately miss informed, through no fault of their own, or even that the right haven’t made their message good enough? Why does it have to be someone else’s failing?

Irregarless of the reasons, the message is clear: after 10 year in power people clearly voted them out.
I agree that the Right may have not made their message good enough (but for what ? To understand how bad they are ? I don’t belive it) but the Left provide the open for them and don’t even try to fight back. Evidently people decide that, all your past action aside, it was not enough that the only arguments you talked about in your entire electoral campaign was about what the Right should not allowed to do.
The problem is that the Left still have not understood it: they are still only talking about the (supposely) bad things the Right is doing instead of proposing what they would do. How could not be their fault ? The Left is ignoring every messages and it is again on the “if people did not vote for us then they are fascist” mantra. Seriously ?

By design of course. I mean, who would choose to live in an employment based, market fundamentalist society where its socialism for the rich and rugged, free market wage slavery for everyone else, if there was any alternative?

The ones that saw how the supposed alternatives (socialism and comunism) worked out. I don’t know how old are you, but I am old enough to remember what was Europe before the fall of the Berlin wall. And I am old enough to remember that even in the comunist side of Europe the end result was the same: a few powerfull ones and the vast majority living in poverty, with the added fact that you could not even had tried to make your life better, it was a crime against The Party.

So I much prefer the actual system, it seems to be the least bad of all the others. Is there a better one ? Probably. What is it ? I don’t know and at the moment I can only think about some utopian sci-fi like scenario.

You can see it from American foreign policy. “Socialism must fail everywhere its tried.” Not “socialism will fail” or that it will probably fail because its sooooo rubbish. No, they have to ensure it does, as official policy. In that statement they admit that nearly any alternative would be preferable.

Nah, I think USA have a very peculiar definition of socialism, they are too much “me centered” to understand everything else.
And while it is true what you say about the American foreing policy, you would have found the opposite in the socialist and comunist states foreign policy.

Wow, you would think all that market pressure would make house prices fall. Surely people would want to sell those properties, as renting sounds like a death sentence.

The houses price would fall if all these houses would be put on the market at (roughly) the same time. Keeping them empty rise the house price because there is less offer on the market. And they sell these properties, simply in a very diluted period, so when they really need some money, for whatever reason.

Its almost as if they’re lying and making a killing as they’re doing it.

To be clear, keeping an empty house cost money to the owner (taxes, maintenance and some other expenses depending on the house) but this amount is still less of the money it would cost to rent it to the (way too often) wrong tenant. It is simply a lesser evil solution.

How did the message delivery work out for you?

Well, if only the left wing would understand the message it would be better, but at least they are not in any position to make more damages.

At least we can agree they both suck.

Yeah. And I am afraid that there seems not to be an alternative

Where are all these empty houses? Even then, they appreciate in value, even empty and propery price appreciation is the best place for a trust fund based in the caymans to obscure ownership of earnings. There isn’t a bigger effect from a few empty properties than house prices exploding 2 of 300% in a couple of decades.

Here I can speak for Italy: everywhere, since there are too many risks to rent them, even for the a trust fund based in the Caymans

• No easy way to get the house back at the end of the contract if the tenant decide to not leave. The eviction process can last years, assuming there is not some laws to block all the eviction processes (a quite common thing)
• No easy way to get the house back if the tenants do not pay the rent: you cannot simply evict them
• The landlord often still need to pay for some expense of the rented home which would be way lower if the home is empty (some consumption-based expenses)
• In case of damages from the tenant, you need years to recover them (if you are lucky), and most often than not what are paid is way less of what you need to repair them
• If you register the contract to have done it lawfully, you need then to pay taxes bases on the rent income (correctly) even if the tenant is not paying you. Basically the state say “you have x income from the rent, pay me y even if you are not getting paid and I (the State) do not want help you to be paid”
• if you use some kind of agent to find the tenants, they obviously are not responsible (should they?) for what the tenant do after, and you need to pay them a share of the rent.
• last but not least, you can decide to sell a rented house but assuming you can, the price would be way lower given the points above (obviously there are exceptions to this).

So people prefer to keep the houses empty and take the cost, knowing where renting it lawfully could led.
Milano has a lot of empty houses (some research say at least 1/3 of the total) but they are not property of some big fund based in the Caymans (right, maybe the very expensive ones in the historic center of the city, but are not that many). They are property of people who get as inheritance or who bought them years back when they were less expensive.

Thats a fair point. To me, one is clearly the lesser evil. I can agree that lesser evil arguments suck but its the best I can find, personally. I choose the one I see as the side who won’t deliberately make it worse for us and better for the people they represent. Personally, I’m a post structuralist and I don’t think anyone can be trusted enough to allow mechanisms of power and hierarchy to exist.

The only problem with your approach (that I respect) is that this way you are rewarding anyway the same people that are creating the (supposed) problem you have. While you are thinking that you are voting for the lesser evil, they interpret it as an approval of what they are saying/doing, so they have no reasons to change.
Honestly I prefer to vote for someone else because it is the only way of saying “you are doing it wrong” and have the message delivered.

But what really I am having trouble with is that now everything need to be black or white, there could not be some middle ground point we can agree. People think that if you do not agree with a side then you are obviously be against that side: problem is that both side say intelligent things and both side tell stupid things, so I can agree with a side on an argument and with the other on another but for some reason that is lost.

However, short of a utopian, philosophers revolution, the best I have to offer is a lesser evil argument. Thats where I’m at. The way I see it, maybe wrongly, is that people on the right share my same frustration but that’s been captured by the very powers that force it on them in the first place. They have our neighbours looking down to find the solution and not up, where the problem has always been.

Maybe we should start to vote for who say intelligent thing irregardless of the side he is. I think that both your lesser evil approach and mine “vote for someone else just because” approach are not good enough to offer a stable solution.

“The left” aren’t pro illegal migration, never have been and never will be. Thats a right wing trope and anyone who falls for it is a moron, sorry. Not allowing in vast amounts of cheap labour, to bring down wages, benefits the people funding the right wing parties, not anyone remotely left leaning. I’m also willing to bet that the bigger problem is the legal migration system the right wing allowed business interests to fuck into the ground, to stop wages from rising.

Ok, then a brutal question: why are they opposing the mass deportation of illegal immigrants ?

How do you think tax cuts for the rich are paid for? All the money that should be going towards those things are going into the wealthy pockets of the people who then convince you the problem is anything but them.

Ok, that’s true but overall I don’t think that not cutting the taxes to the rich could put a dent in the total amount (btw, how much one need to earn to be defined rich ?). I mean, I fully support the idea that everyone should pay the taxes based on how much they earns but I don’t understand this idea that the rich are the source of all the problems. Yeah, they may not pay that much taxes but they are also a really small number.

The housing crisis for you and me is the record profit boon for landlords and property developers.

That’s true if you and me can buy (or rent) an house. If you and me need to stay in our parent’s house, the landords and property developers end with empty houses (landlords) or bankrupt. And there are other factors to contribute to the house crisis other than the price.

Youre saying they haven’t been in power for 6 years but its still all their fault? That seems a stretch.

In the UK ? I am not saying it is all their fault but for example in Italy we will pay the damages done by the left (and an idiot on the right) for years to come, whatever the left or the right will be in power.

I never said that once let alone continued. Please drop the victim complex and some people do stupid things. I do stupid things too. However, believing the right wing will save people from themselves is a stupid thing i don’t do.

Look, it is not to play the victim card. The point is that when people vote you need to convince them to vote for you. It is not always a rationale reasoning, I agree, but in general people tends to vote for who say will handle the problems people have (or think to have) in the day by day.
Now, in UK the right were voted, they did not well so now people will presumably vote for the left. Good. In Italy we have the opposite situation: the left was voted, they did not do well and now people vote the right. BTW, in Italy the right wing won because at the last elections people who vote for the left wing did not showed up to vote, now they cannot cry “the right win”, they should have moved their ass that day.

The question is: can we really blame someone that have (or think to have) a problem when he vote for the side that at least acknowledge the problem ? Yeah, most of the time he would not belive in what that side promise but what’s the alternative ?

But sure, keep acting the victim and blaming everyone else. See if that makes me vote for you.

Probably not.

I can do that too you know. I just choose not to.

I know. But even choosing to continue to vote for someone that not solve the problems does not seems a good idea.

Thats just an overly sweeping, thought terminating, cliché thats only ever said by people who would never vote left of Reagan anyway. You’ll excuse me if I don’t bother arguing that “da left” policies =/= zero, I’m sure.

Fair enough and you are welcome.

I think you would struggle to show me anything with “the left” saying there are no problems.

The mayor of Milano for one. Even if some area of the city are basically off-limits after a certain time, expecially for women.

They might not agree with made up problems that don’t contribute to the difficulties people face but that’s not the same thing.

Again, fair enough. They can think that it is a made up problem. But what should be the correct answer ? Because if I say “look, there is too many illegal immigrants around in this area of Milano (Stazione Centrale) and it is not safe because of the petty crimes”, the answer could not be “you are too ignorant to understand why it is not a problem”, you should explain to my how having thousands of illegal immigrant around living by petty crimes is not a problem, if you can (just an example btw).
Or if I ask for more kindergartens so I can have children you cannot answer to me that we are already too many and the next week say that we need to welcome more immigrants because the population is declining.

Of course, I must be wrong. Its not wealthy business interests who benefit from the housing crisis or falling wages.

Ok, assuming you are right, where is the benefit of a housing crisis where young people could not buy an house since they cannot have a mortage from the banks due to the low wages ? I would understand if the housing crisis rise the price and people could afford to buy more expensive houses, but it not seems to be the case. Ok, I understand that there could be some very short term benefits, but then ? It is not that you can eat the house and as the price increase the number of buyers goes down.

No, clearly its the left! Sorry, I’m not going to fall for the “considers you part of the problem” rhetoric. Youre either lying to push some “you can’t even be white these days” trope or are genuinely part of the problem and deserve it.

Given that the left was in power (in one way or another) for more than 20 years of the last 30 years, at least in Italy, I would say that maybe it not all their fault, but they are not innocent either.

The right have been in power in Italy and the UK and have been for years.

Ok, facts checks.
Here the list of Prime Ministrers from 1994 to today (so the last 30 years) in Italy:

• Berlusconi (Right): 11/05/1994 - 17/01/1995
• Dini (undefined): 17/01/1995 - 18/05/1996
• Prodi (Left): 18/05/1996 - 21/10/1998
• D’Alema (Left): 21/10/1998 - 22/12/1999
• D’Alema (Left): 22/10/1999 - 26/04/2000
• Amato (Left): 26/04/2000 - 11/06/2001
• Berlusconi (Right): 11/06/2001 - 23/04/2005
• Berlusconi (Right): 23/04/2005 - 17/05/2006
• Prodi (Left): 17/05/2006 - 8/05/2008
• Berlusconi (Right): 8/05/2008 - 16/11/2011
• Monti (undefined): 16/11/2011 - 28/04/2013
• Letta (Left): 28/04/2013 - 22/02/2014
• Renzi (Left): 22/02/2014 - 12/12/2016
• Gentiloni (Left): 12/12/2016 - 1/06/2018
• Conte (Mostly Right): 1/6/2018 - 5/9/2019
• Conte (Left): 5/9/2019 - 13/2/2021
• Draghi (undefined): 13/2/2021 - 22/10/2022
• Meloni (Right): 22/10/2022 - today

The 3 undefined are what we call “Governo tecnico”, so not really from the Left or the Right.

Tell me again how the Right have been in power for years, please. Maybe it is true for UK.

When will you lot grow up and admit your own mistakes and abject failure to do anything other than make already very rich people far richer?

Ok, so what the Left did to stop this ? Just make anyone poorer ? Yeah, of course I am part of the problem and continuing to call me “part of the problem” or “too ignorant to understand” obviously will make me to vote for you. Good job.

The point is: don’t trust the polls, especially if there is a social stigma associated with one of the options.

Its true, most right wingers are selfish cowards.

Some right wingers. Many not.

Although, lets be real, the polls are never that wrong.

Oh well, the one about Trump was. And even some more recent ones. What I noted lately is that the polls are no more reliable in any case, they are wrong most of the time even if not by that much, I agree.

The reason people will vote right wing is because Italy has a problem with fascism? Well, thats an interesting take.

No, the reason people in Italy vote right wing is because the left wing has nothing to offer. How the left wing can win when their entire political program is only “the right wing should not win” ? Man, I can vote the left, but they need to have something more concrete than just “the others should not win”.

I mean, if anyone is upset at their purchase power dropping, having to live with their parents or lines at the food kitchen and chooses to vote right wing because of it, they’re beyond stupid. Nothing anyone could say to them would work, as you can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into.

I agree. But you are missing the point, which is that they voted for the only side that at least acknowledges there are problems. Then I concede that maybe their solution is not the best or even the correct one, but at least is something concrete.

“I know, I’ll vote for the people who are directly funded by the groups who directly profit from those problems! I’m so smart!”

What do you even say to that kind of “thinking”?

Wrong, the choice is between a side (the left) that consider you as part of the problem and a side (the right) that promise you to solve the problem. What do you think a person will vote ?

“No, its not that you’re stupid, its just that, actually, when your house is on fire, its generally considered more sensible to reach for the fire extinguisher instead of the flame thrower. I know, I know, I’ve heard the term fight fire with fire before too. However, I’ll tell you what I told my friend, shortly after they lost their job. No, you can’t always fight fire with fire. Especially when you’re a firefighter, you doughnut.”

True, but also calling for the one that spread the fire don’t seems a good idea.

It is really simple: the left had its chance, they failed and so people vote for the alternative. To continue to vote for the same people that create the problem is not that intelligent either.

If houses that were used to house tourists are no longer allowed to do so, why would they not become available for either rent or sale?

For rent because, depending on the laws, it can be really hard to get it back in case there is a tenant that do not pay or refuse to leave. In many italian cities there were many houses (they talk about 1/3 of the houses in Milano) that were empty because it was too dangerous to rent them (damages, missing payments, evictions which take years, people that refuse to leave even after the end of the contract). The same reasons make way harder to sell a rented house. So all (or most) of these house went to the short rent market (AirBnB and the likes).

For sale because the owner could keep it in case he need some extra money down the road or his son would need it some years from now or any other reason.

What else is there for the owners to do with them?

Nothing, which is better than to have to (eventually) fight to get the house back from a bad tenants, with all the time and money involved.

I see the point of what Barcellona (and other cities) want to do but the raise of short rents are a consequence, not the cause. True, renting on AirBnB make me more money than a normal rent contract but what people do not understand it that this system would have worked even if it would make me less money than a normal rent because 1) I would be sure to be paid, 2) I would be sure that the tenants would leave at the end of the rent, 3) where would be some sort of (partial) compensation in case of damages and 4) if I ever decide that I now need the house I just need to stop listing on the site and I have the house back.

This thread is about the UK, not Italy.

I know. What I mean is that I would not be so sure that what people say they will vote will be what they actually vote.
In Italy many people told they would never vote for Berlusconi but somehow he won the elections. Same with Trump, the poll gave him losing yet he won.

The point is: don’t trust the polls, especially if there is a social stigma associated with one of the options.

However, if we are to talk about Italy, its always had a problem with fascism, being its birthplace and all. A millenniam long hangover from Romes slave economies and Christianity is to blame for what makes it very much the outlier and not the norm here.

You sentence is the exact reason why people are going to vote for the right wings.
The only people talking about fascism in Italy is the left wing. At the last EU election the points of the left were that the fascism must not win and that their secretary is a multigender woman. Not a word about the actual problems we have (for example, that people have seen their purchasing power drop by a considerable amount, a couple that want to build a family must relay on their parents to be able to buy an house and even more if they decide to have a child, lines at soup kitchens get longer and longer and so on).

But yes, we are going off-topic. My bad.