But it seems to me that many many Ukranian citizens are actively fighting to ensure their survival and the survival of their nation
You have outdated info. It might have been somewhat correct 2 years ago, when there were some volunteers. Now - it’s pure propaganda spread by Zelensky and parroted by the western media. Now, the only thing people do “actively” is trying to avoid being kidnapped on the streets or trying to flee the mass prison that is Ukraine, some dying in the rivers/mountains trying to do so.
And even those who fight - they don’t fight for their survival, not even for the survival of the state (although I guess in some sense you can say that), just for some peace of land, which the state wants to control.
If you don’t want to fight, that’s fine. Don’t fight.
Oh really? Thank god I have a choice. Oh right, I don’t - Zelensky’s regime will happily kidnap me, my family and my friends and send everyone to die at the first opportunity they get (although with me it will be harder, because I escaped Ukraine before the war started).
There should be no duty to fight
Indeed, I’m glad that we can at least agree on this.
If only you also stopped supporting those who force this “duty” on others…
but if you love your country
How can I love a country that wants me dead?
and want your way of life to continue, you should fight against the invading forces who want to destroy your country and way of life.
You are (most likely) looking at this from a perspective of a westerner, who has never been in Ukraine and/or Russia. If you live in USA, EU, or basically any other “first world country” - I can see why you would fight Russia to “keep your way of life”. Look at any metric you want (GDP, HDI, corruption, journalist freedom, amount of wooden toilets in the countryside) and you will see that both countries are the same shithole give or take. Average Joe wouldn’t even notice his government has changed.
What is it that makes you so consumed with hate that you are willing to fully align with the russian propaganda? There is nothing wrong with being critical, but if the consequence is, to just pick a side and unconditionally accept their narrative then you’ve given up any critical thinking.
Whom do I hate? People who are trying to kill me and my family and friends? Should I be okay with it?
that you are willing to fully align with the russian propaganda?
I do not “fully align with the Russian propaganda”, only with parts of it that are true… And if I said something that is false, I’d very much like to learn where I’m wrong, if you could just point me exactly what is it that I’ve said that is wrong?
Guaranteed you’ve been to Russia and if you visited Ukraine you probably called it Russia as well.
I haven’t “visited” Ukraine, I’ve lived there.
refusing to give solutions you claim to have
WDYM by that? Quote needed :) My solution is to stop kidnapping innocent people on the streets and forbidding them from leaving the country, as simple as that.
No, what’s your solution to end the war. Stop cowering and give us this brilliant solution that proves that all your bullshit platitudes and pleas to morality arent just you spouting bullshit out your mouth because your thumbs up your ass.
Even the most biased sources don’t claim the fighting force is 100% forced fighters, none. That similarly doesn’t mean Russia will stop taking territory. You’re actively advocating for Russian annexation of Ukraine.
They have tried that and are still trying that, what makes you think that every attempt had stopped. Moreover Russia agreed not to invade Ukraine in iirc 1991, they bring that peace agreement, they agreed not to invade Ukraine after annexing crimea, they broke that. Do you just blindly trust a government who has time and time again shown itself to not be trustworthy.
Even the most biased sources don’t claim the fighting force is 100% forced fighters, none.
Neither did I. But the percentage grows with each day, otherwise why would they potentially damage their reputation by kidnapping people from the streets, if there were any volunteers left?
That similarly doesn’t mean Russia will stop taking territory. You’re actively advocating for Russian annexation of Ukraine.
I’m actively advocating for almost the most basic human rights imaginable - freedom of movement and freedom to live. It’s way more important than that or other country owning some territory.
They have tried that and are still trying that, what makes you think that every attempt had stopped.
Zelensky has never (except at the very start of the war) even pretended to do serious peace negotiations. His solution was always “yeah we want peace - when Russia leaves all our territories including those it controlled as far as in 2014 - and then we can think about having peace talk with them”. And he continuously has this attitude, as Russia gained more and more land. It’s not realistic peace talks in any way, it’s being a clown…
Moreover Russia agreed not to invade Ukraine in iirc 1991, they bring that peace agreement, they agreed not to invade Ukraine after annexing crimea, they broke that. Do you just blindly trust a government who has time and time again shown itself to not be trustworthy.
This is a fair point, they indeed broke that agreement. Just like any other country has broken agreements in the past. It doesn’t mean we should all just try to kill each other and never negotiate though.
What source are you using for these metrics you keep clinging to without sourcing.
For my claim that the percentage of people involuntarily fighting the war? Just the logic. If you find my logic unsound, I’d very much like to hear why.
What proof at all do you have of these claims you’ve again failed to source.
Your source about peace talks you claim were sabotaged says otherwise, choose a lane.
Quote needed. Please stop putting words in my mouth :).
I’ve said that the west (and especially Boris Johnson) encouraged Zelensky to go to war instead of making peace, linked article talks exactly about that.
You have outdated info. It might have been somewhat correct 2 years ago, when there were some volunteers. Now - it’s pure propaganda spread by Zelensky and parroted by the western media. Now, the only thing people do “actively” is trying to avoid being kidnapped on the streets or trying to flee the mass prison that is Ukraine, some dying in the rivers/mountains trying to do so.
And even those who fight - they don’t fight for their survival, not even for the survival of the state (although I guess in some sense you can say that), just for some peace of land, which the state wants to control.
Oh really? Thank god I have a choice. Oh right, I don’t - Zelensky’s regime will happily kidnap me, my family and my friends and send everyone to die at the first opportunity they get (although with me it will be harder, because I escaped Ukraine before the war started).
Indeed, I’m glad that we can at least agree on this.
If only you also stopped supporting those who force this “duty” on others…
How can I love a country that wants me dead?
You are (most likely) looking at this from a perspective of a westerner, who has never been in Ukraine and/or Russia. If you live in USA, EU, or basically any other “first world country” - I can see why you would fight Russia to “keep your way of life”. Look at any metric you want (GDP, HDI, corruption, journalist freedom, amount of wooden toilets in the countryside) and you will see that both countries are the same shithole give or take. Average Joe wouldn’t even notice his government has changed.
What is it that makes you so consumed with hate that you are willing to fully align with the russian propaganda? There is nothing wrong with being critical, but if the consequence is, to just pick a side and unconditionally accept their narrative then you’ve given up any critical thinking.
Whom do I hate? People who are trying to kill me and my family and friends? Should I be okay with it?
I do not “fully align with the Russian propaganda”, only with parts of it that are true… And if I said something that is false, I’d very much like to learn where I’m wrong, if you could just point me exactly what is it that I’ve said that is wrong?
Please tell me what made you think so
Guaranteed you’ve been to Russia and if you visited Ukraine you probably called it Russia as well.
You’re not making points you’re laying platitudes and refusing to give solutions you claim to have.
I haven’t “visited” Ukraine, I’ve lived there.
WDYM by that? Quote needed :) My solution is to stop kidnapping innocent people on the streets and forbidding them from leaving the country, as simple as that.
Uh huh. I’m sure.
Will that stop the war you absolute bafoon?
No, what’s your solution to end the war. Stop cowering and give us this brilliant solution that proves that all your bullshit platitudes and pleas to morality arent just you spouting bullshit out your mouth because your thumbs up your ass.
Of course, how will it continue if Zelensky’s regime wouldn’t be able to force people to fight it for him?
The same as with any other war - peace talks.
Even the most biased sources don’t claim the fighting force is 100% forced fighters, none. That similarly doesn’t mean Russia will stop taking territory. You’re actively advocating for Russian annexation of Ukraine.
They have tried that and are still trying that, what makes you think that every attempt had stopped. Moreover Russia agreed not to invade Ukraine in iirc 1991, they bring that peace agreement, they agreed not to invade Ukraine after annexing crimea, they broke that. Do you just blindly trust a government who has time and time again shown itself to not be trustworthy.
Neither did I. But the percentage grows with each day, otherwise why would they potentially damage their reputation by kidnapping people from the streets, if there were any volunteers left?
I’m actively advocating for almost the most basic human rights imaginable - freedom of movement and freedom to live. It’s way more important than that or other country owning some territory.
Zelensky has never (except at the very start of the war) even pretended to do serious peace negotiations. His solution was always “yeah we want peace - when Russia leaves all our territories including those it controlled as far as in 2014 - and then we can think about having peace talk with them”. And he continuously has this attitude, as Russia gained more and more land. It’s not realistic peace talks in any way, it’s being a clown…
This is a fair point, they indeed broke that agreement. Just like any other country has broken agreements in the past. It doesn’t mean we should all just try to kill each other and never negotiate though.
What source are you using for these metrics you keep clinging to without sourcing.
What proof at all do you have of these claims you’ve again failed to source.
Your source about peace talks you claim were sabotaged says otherwise, choose a lane.
Oh so we’re just ignoring a chronic history of broken peace agreements and multiple invasions in what 40 years? Again choose a lane.
For my claim that the percentage of people involuntarily fighting the war? Just the logic. If you find my logic unsound, I’d very much like to hear why.
About what exactly? People being kidnapped on the streets and being forbidden to leave the country so they try to escape through rivers/mountains, or about something else?
https://theconversation.com/why-banning-men-from-leaving-ukraine-violates-their-human-rights-178411
https://uadraftmuseum.ch/ https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/ukraine-urgently-needs-soldiers-but-some-men-are-desperate-not-to-fight/ar-BB1naQUE https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russia-war-recruitment/32310040.html https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66542065 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/15/bribes-and-hiding-at-home-the-ukrainian-men-trying-to-avoid-conscription
Quote needed. Please stop putting words in my mouth :). I’ve said that the west (and especially Boris Johnson) encouraged Zelensky to go to war instead of making peace, linked article talks exactly about that.