I need to install an OS for someone whose first impulse upon seeing a screen is to touch it, because they are young and their first assumption is a touchscreen.
They know their way around Windows and Windows is probably tought to them at school, so Windows might actually be the smart move… but I fucking hate it.
Is ZorinOS or similar polished enough that I can leave it to someone whose tech literacy is centered around Roblox, TikTok and evading parental locks? I don’t want to normalize the Windows-bullshit. But I don’t want their first Linux-experience to be frustrating.
I’m hearing a lot of very poor advice in here, at least from my perspective as a Linux user who’s been through the gamut of various distros over the years.
Fedora atomic desktops are not beginner distros. That is not their purpose, and their limitations make many things a person may eventually want to do with their machine a lot more complicated.
Debian? Are we joking here? Debian is an amazing distro for what its purposes are, but it’s not beginner friendly. Debian is bare bones.
Linux Mint is the easiest answer here. Ubuntu LTS (or its classroom based fork edubuntu) is another great answer. I know every Linux user on the internet recoils in horror at the mention of Ubuntu but it really is a drop in plug and play solution for kids and old people.
The only thing I still don’t like much about recommending Linux Mint to beginners is that their Cinnamon desktop still uses Xorg which has some horrible display tearing on some Nvidia graphic cards (can be usually fixed with some tinkering and this is also only my personal experience), which is usually not a thing with Wayland and being Xorg it also means it has inferior touchpad gestures (surely not as smooth as Gnome or KDE) which can be important for notebook users. While being very user friendly it is one of the more resource heavy DE’s I would say even more than Gnome or KDE. It also seems to have some problems with battery life? The official Gnome and KDE desktop packages for Linux Mint are pretty outdated, are still Xorg versions and aren’t officially supported AFAIK (maybe there are some good community maintained packages). Otherwise I agree it’s one of the best choices.
My personal favorite for beginners is Fedora Workstation or KDE edition, because it’s up to date and fairly hassle free and stable (except the frequent kernel updates which sometime cause issues, but booting the older kernel is straightforward) and does not much modify its packages from the original or push their products on you like Ubuntu.
Totally valid. I tried Mint with my father in law before and we had issues as well before I migrated him to Ubuntu which works wonderfully for him. I hadn’t used Mint myself in a couple years and figured the issues were hardware specific.
their limitations make many things a person may eventually want to do with their machine a lot more complicated.
Like what?
Using literally anything that requires an out of tree kernel module, for one. Have some peripherals with features that aren’t supported by drivers already present in the kernel? Good luck getting any DKMS packages running on your machine.
I followed the path Mint>Fedora>openSUSE.
Wanna know my experience? I had issues daily with screen tearing on mint, even though I had the NVIDIA drivers they were probably too old on Mint for my graphics card. The desktop wouldn’t load, I had errors on starting and on shutting down Mint. I spent more time troubleshooting Mint than working.
I said fuck it and decided to give fedora (actually Universal Blue’s Aurora, which is atomic and fedora-based). It was pure bliss.
Everything just worked out of the box to the point that I was confused as to why everything was working so well. The only thing I had to “learn” was how to use distrobox through BoxBuddy, which took a whopping 30 minutes of research or so.
Now I moved to OpenSUSE Tumbleweed and it feels like going back in time. I know my OS is not as secure due to not being atomic, I have to run the command line daily for updates, and the initial setting up would have been intimidating for a beginner. But at least it also hasn’t given me problems yet, unlike what happened with Mint.
So IMO Mint should definitely not be recommended to beginners. The architecture of atomic distros is very familiar to anyone who has a smartphone today, which is practically everyone. You can go to the software store and download Flatpaks as seamlessly as you do on the Google Play or Apple Store. You can even change the apps Permitions using Flatseal. And best of all, you get an OS that is secure, which traditional Linux distros aren’t due to every app having root access by default.
I haven’t done it yet, but when my wife wants to change her laptop, I’ll 100% install a self-maintaining atomic distro for her.
Three years ago when I used Mint I had minimal issues, but it sounds like things have declined since then.
My path went something like Pop_OS>Mint>Fedora Workstation>Mint>MXLinux>Nobara>EndeavourOS>Fedora Workstation for a solid year>and back to endeavour with hyprland.
But that’s just the stuff I’ve installed and actually kept longer than a few days. I’ve installed silverblue, kinoite, openSUSE tumbleweed, bluefin, bazzite etc just to learn them, and honestly I just don’t see the use case for average users in atomic distros. Non atomic distros are entirely stable if you don’t do stupid things with them, and doing stupid things with them is a great learning experience.
Same old Linux differences in opinion.
Alright. So…, that’s one thing. Got more where those came from? I’m just asking because you said “… many things …” previously.
Edit: Just to be clear, I acknowledge that’s a big thing (at least for some). So I’m not trying to underplay it or anything*. And I agree that by itself, it may constitute sufficient of a reason for some to rightfully not consider these distros.
Using toolbox to force out of tree software to function is not nearly as simple going to the discover app and clicking “download”
Remember we’re talking about a kid. Not a power user. We’re talking about people that don’t know and don’t want to know what a kernel module is. Are those extra steps fine for you? Great, knock yourself out. They aren’t feasible for a child or grandmother who wants to just click shit and see it launch.
I use EndeavourOS without a desktop environment and install and configure Hyprland for myself. I enjoy those extra steps. Someone unfamiliar with my system wouldn’t even be able to open the web browser. That’s fine for me. I’m not going to suggest it for my 74 year old father in law. He uses Ubuntu.
Is it making sense yet?
Aight, gotcha. That whole business with “out of tree kernel modules” and having to “use toolbox to force out of tree software to function” definitely sounds like a pain, especially for the kind of user OP was talking about. I can see why those would be headaches in that specific context.
It’s just, when I first read that original line about atomic distros making “…many things a person may eventually want to do with their machine a lot more complicated,” my brain kinda went, ‘Whoa, many things? Like, for anybody who might want to dig in a bit more eventually, beyond OP’s initial scenario?’
So, hearing about the driver stuff and the app install workarounds… yeah, those are definitely a couple of solid examples that start to flesh out what ‘many things’ could mean, even in that wider sense. Helping me connect some dots, for sure. Still kinda leaves you wondering what else is on the ‘many things’ menu, eh? :P
just a heads up last I checked roblox wasn’t officially supported on Linux, though this may have changed in the last 6 months.
there’s an app called Sober on flathub, developed by creators of Vinegar. i use it to play roblox and i can say it works without any issues. the setup is really simple, since it dowloads everything by itself
https://devforum.roblox.com/t/the-ultimate-guide-on-how-to-play-roblox-on-linux/3171920
It seems that there are unofficial ports. OP could test it out before.
It’s broken because of anti cheat. I believe it’s possible to use the android version though.
Mint, Pop!OS, or Unbuntu LTS
KDE Plasma offers a UI similar to Windows out of the box, I would say that’s a good start. Introduce them to the endless customisation options and they might start to dig it. Maybe take a distro aimed at gaming like Bazzite.
Other good options inlcude OpenSUSE or Linux Mint, the latter with another, but also similar feeling desktop.
Although caution is advised, this is a slippery slope to becoming a programmer.
My opinions are likely to be in accord with information found at https://www.privacyguides.org/en/desktop/ and https://www.privacyguides.org/en/android/distributions/
As an alternative to making decisions without direct assistance, you might benefit from contracting with another person to make decisions based on requirements you describe (essentially getting a chief information officer (CIO) for yourself). The main reason I’m suggesting this is that having more people involved will make it more likely that someone will know about established best practices relevant to your situation or that someone will have experience with a problem that is similar to the one you’re dealing with. Additional reasons I could provide for this would be similar to the reasons people give to discourage someone from handling court appearances without a lawyer or doing surgery on themselves. You might be able to use https://ryf.fsf.org/categories/laptops to find information about how to contact people about your computing needs. Alternatively, you could visit a store (for example, one operated by Walmart).
Ok, let me rephrase this:
Your kid is too young to understand the concept of a mouse, but they arent young enough to not use Tiktok, a Social media known for killing even young adults attention time. And for some reason they are thought how to use a PC? To a 5-7 year old?
That aside, I recommend using literally Any OS and just making a guest user excluded from the sudoers file. To install new Apps, just use flatpak at user level, and for roblox theres Sober
I would just like to say that I really appreciate everyone’s contributions so far; even the little off-topic discussions.
But you are completely misjudging the situation. When I spoke of “first assumption”, said they "know their way around Windows" and stated they found ways around prior parental locks, I was actually referring to the fact that “my kid” hasn’t even been born yet. We’ve just slipped two iPads in, one with a YouTube-Kids Elsa Gate loop and the other constantly doom scrolling TikTok and Twitter.
I’m definitely not talking about someone who is a several years older than I was, when I got my first internet connected PC.
Sarcasm aside; they are more than old enough, according to their actual parents. They had a phone for quite some time; same for a Windows notebook. I just happen to have a better notebook laying around, but feel like Windows is sort of shit, and I need a little help with judging if Linux is the right call.
If you are not the Parent, the kid has going to have a hard time with Linux if you arent availible 24/7 for them to ask. Linux takes some getting used to, and if not even the Parents know anything about it, they are not going to be able to lock down Linux enough
My guess is that if most things “just work”, Linux may be fine. I mean, there’s a whole second laptop available and I’m reachable most of the time. I just don’t want to play support all the time.
I’m also not that worried about locking things down. The parents can’t even lock down Windows properly and have resorted to restricting internet time via a router setting. It’s MAC based, and I think if the kid figures out how to change MAC addresses, they deserve a little extra Roblox time until the parents notice.
At the moment I think I’ll sit down with them and we’ll set this thing up together. That way I can teach them a bit about the differences and show them cool things like ad blocking or Steam and see how they do by themselves … and then make my (hopefully final) decision.
Fedora Silverblue is basically Android.
You click on apps in a software store to install, it updates itself (without you noticing) on reboot, the terminal is entirely optional and almost entirely useless.Why is the terminal useless?
It was hyperbole. I used Silverblue for a bit trying to avoid layering packages entirely.
But not being able to simply install CLI system tools I’m used to (like btop) or rummaging around in /etc felt really limiting. I realize that’s on me, cause these distros work differently.rummaging around in /etc felt really limiting.
Sorry, I didn’t get this. Could you elaborate?
I meant not being able to rummage around in /etc .
Since it is read-only, you always have to copy a config file into your home/user/.config/… before you can edit it.Sorry, I think there’s a misunderstanding.
First of all, thank you for clarifying what you meant. I’m not native, so I haven’t seen “rummage” being used within that context. And while a LLM did (at least an attempt to) provide its meaning, it didn’t make sense… by which we have arrived at the misunderstanding.
Since it is read-only
Yes, for Fedora Atomic, (most of)
/usris read-only. Perhaps this also applies to some other folders of/, however this doesn’t apply to/etcas it’s not read-only; therefore, you can actually change its content. At best, you’d have to gosudo(or fill the credentials through polkit’s window); but that’s all. This part isn’t different from how it’s over on (traditional) Fedora. Compared to its non-Atomic variant, however, we do find the following changes regarding/etc:- The changes you apply to
/etcare being kept track of. You can access these throughostree admin config-diff. - And, related to the previous, a pristine copy of
/etcis kept at/usr/etc. And, that one, is actually read-only.
So…, the following step, i.e.
you always have to copy a config file into your home/user/.config/… before you can edit it.
Isn’t required or anything. Heck, it’s the first time (after three years of Fedora Atomic) that I’ve seen something like that being mentioned within this context.
Then either they changed that, or I didn’t understand it right, while I was using it.
Probably the latter. That being said, my other frustration was a lack of easily discoverable in-depth documentation.
But I wouldn’t be surprised if I was just too dumb to find that, too.That being said, my other frustration was a lack of easily discoverable in-depth documentation.
That’s indeed a big concern. Thanks for mentioning that.
FWIW, uBlue’s images (which are just opinionated takes on Fedora Atomic) have better documentation, but those have only more recently been a thing.
- The changes you apply to
She’s exaggerating
VERY much.
I daily drive Silverblue (and the terminal is not useless >:c), and in a vacuum I would probably install Silverblue or another atomic desktop. But I worry about Windows compatibility.
Imagine the feeling when “you just click the .exe and everything installs itself” works for everyone but you. It doesn’t matter that downloading executables from random websites is way worse than a proper package manager in pretty much every way.
It’s still alienating. Going along with everyones technical dept may still be a nicer experience, because at least it doesn’t require the effort of doing something different.
That’s what I’m worried about.
Imagine the feeling when “you just click the .exe and everything installs itself” works for everyone but you. It doesn’t matter that downloading executables from random websites is way worse than a proper package manager in pretty much every way.
If this is your aim, you can’t really do that with Linux. Better stick with Windows in this case, as that’s the only place where this works.
Just want to add to the difference in experience:
I leaned Linux, because I wanted to learn Linux and as such I was fine with stumbling a bit from time to time. They want a working computer that does Roblox and homework and don’t care much about the rest.
I totally understand where you’re coming from, and I’m pessimistic that any flavor of Linux will be an acceptable experience for the person you’re describing. Something like Silverblue may be least obstrusive, but compatibility will still be a prominent problem.
Alternatively, you could show them surface level cool stuff that’s easier to do with Linux. Like blocking all ads, running your own Minecraft server, downloading YouTube videos, building your own PC with cheap parts (and maybe even pirating movies and TV shows, depending on your own practices and relationship to that person). There’s a lot to love about Linux even if you don’t care about privacy and open software as abstract values.
Then staying with Windows forever, no matter how shit it’s become and how much it’s changed even compared to just 2 years ago, is the only option.
I think the best solution would be to talk first.
Gather 10 reasons why it makes sense. For example, its wayyyyyyyyy cheaper to run linux, ethics, etc. Dont wait for them to get frustrated but approach them first and build up an ethical primacy. Thats how i do it and it works.
From there, you ask them what they need. “Just works tm” is sadly how autocracy works. Under hitler and mussolini, healthy, white, party loyal people had a “just works” situation. Dont ask, dont tell. But foss is democratic. It is messy at times.
Reality is, you can make linux work. If something is really stubborn, you make a vm. Shockingly easy! But if someone wants that polish, that plastic world with 14 year olds with pumped up lips and butt implants, you need to let them go. They are lost and need to face reality.
I’d just install debian because that’s what I use so that’s what I can most easily provide support for.
Uh, I don’t have a good answer for that, but I’d give them something like Linux Mint anyways. That way they can look up stuff, watch tutorials and don’t have a super niche thing running. Or give them one of the popular gaming distros, if it’s that.
Idk. Gnome feels very much like Android to me. And KDE follows similar design patterns to Windows. And kids and teenagers tend to figure out all the things they want. If they have the motivation to do so.
Semantics but gnome and kde were there first. It is android that looks like gnome and windows that looks like kde.
Hmmh. And it’s not even a linear progression. They take inspiration all the time. I remember gnome 2 being very different from what it is today. And they tend to look at MacOS.
Fair point.
KDE was started in 1996 and the first release was in 1998. Windows 95 was released in (surprise!) 1995.
That has nothing to do with windows 10 looking like kde.
Oh, you’re talking about Windows 10 specifically then? I took it you meant generally.
KDE has looked and mostly (yay workspaces!) worked like Windows since the first version. I remember I was there.
